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Old 02-28-2010, 09:26 AM   #71
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OK, without the drama this time or using derivatives of the word deceit, which is way off from center here. Maybe "bait and switch" would be...just kidding!! It's not a bad principal to keep in mind however to disclose costs or expectations of costs at the onset.

You can see after reading the posts that I have expected to pay my way and know that events require fees. That's no problem. If you go you pay, if you don't pay you don't go. K.I.S.S. We're golden on that. The discussion is about covering the costs of running the club, and Frank, you mentioned web services for one aspect. What others are you anticipating? Insurance? OK Are there other expenses?

You see I was under the impression that through the internet and simplicity and volunteerism there would be no need to incur costs to run TAC. That's not to say you couldn't find ways to spend.
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Old 02-28-2010, 09:41 AM   #72
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Some fairgrounds require it to protect themselves from liability issues. If you are camping in state parks or commercial campgrounds this will not be an issue. The new WBCCI policy also protects rally workers from prosecution. It is not a direct benefit but only the financially foolish risk takers would organize or run a rally without it. It is an indirect benefit.
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Old 02-28-2010, 10:14 AM   #73
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Who's Who?

I don't know for sure who the original organizers of TAC are, or if they are even participating in this discussion.
However, before anyone continues the dues/insurance thing discussion, I would recommend they read this:
(Especially the information panel at the bottom.)

Airstream Forums - The Airstreamers Club (TAC)

The subject of dues is directly addressed.

Regards,
Ken
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:07 PM   #74
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I believe a rally on federal lands may trigger a whole lot of requirements also. I checked into that about 20 years ago and decided to ignore them (federal statute of limitations is 6 years). It may be different depending on whether it Park Service, BLM, FS, Fish and Wildlife or the White House lawn. Some state parks may require something, others may not. You have to ask to find out.

Steve is correct—check with your insurance agent, but don't depend on the agent alone, read the policies, all of them that may apply—homeowners, car, trailer, omnibus. If you live in one state and host a rally in another, your policy may not be clear on any liability coverage. If you are collecting money to pay for food, camping fees at a CG, etc., you may be involved in a venture which has commercial implications and that can change everything.

As for who has organized this, it's pretty obvious that Rob and Frank are, but other seem to be, but I'm unsure whether they really are.

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Old 02-28-2010, 01:19 PM   #75
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I can't figure out how to join TAC. I am not even sure I can navigate around the Air Forums yet, since I rarely come here. Can someone help me?
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:23 PM   #76
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welcome,go to forums ,how too's
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:32 PM   #77
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North', go to near top of this page (or any other one) and click on "Clubs and Groups Directory". You'll get a list and TAC is the last one. Click on it and there's a little info. To join I think you have to contact Rob (airstreamnut@gmail.com) and get a number.

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Old 02-28-2010, 05:23 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
You see I was under the impression that through the internet and simplicity and volunteerism there would be no need to incur costs to run TAC. That's not to say you couldn't find ways to spend.
Carol,
There are lots of ways of handling costs... for those of you that don't know Frank, for quite some time, he has been cooking full breakfasts at the rallies he attends. He does this with no obligation to pay, but will accept contributions if offered. I doubt he keeps a dollar for dollar accounting, but I think he takes care of breakfast and folks take care of him. It's been my personal experience that this is a great way to do things. Last July, we did a practice run for this years Birthday Bash. The four host families along with a few other contributors did our darnedest to put on the best event we knew how. We were paid back many times over in gratitude and at the end of the weekend we all still had enough money in our wallets to get home.

This year, we have kicked it up a few notches... there is a cost up front, but the return on investment for the attendees will be not outdone by any event available... at least that is our goal... you'll have to ask folks this summer how we did.

TAC is an outgrowth of this kind of approach. It is our hope that our approach is duplicated across North America... I think the membership response indicates that this may be the case. Only time will tell... all I can say, based on my experience, that anybody that takes on the task of sharing in this way with their Airstream friends will not be disappointed.
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:49 PM   #79
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Greetings all
This may not be the place to announce this but anyway (please move as needed)

An interest in the Civil War and the timing of the anniversary of the Surrender, prompted me to set up this excursion. I announced it to my unit, the Delaware Valley NJ, and did not get much of a response. I am making this trip anyway and am extending the invitation to any and all of our new group. To any interested, please make your own reservations at the named campgrounds, as I have done already for myself. We can discuss any changes or other plans as we gather.

Lees' Retreat........................ An Outing, Rally, A Non Event, An Invitation
April 5-11/12, Petersburg/Appomattox VA
Monday and Tuesday, Picture lake Campground, Petersburg,VA Picture Lake Campgrounds will be spent exploring the Petersburg Battlefield, Pamplin Park and any other points of interest.
Wednesday, April 7, leaving to head toward Appomattox via the path of Lees' Retreat
Virginia's Retreat
Making the way to Amelia Courthouse and the Battle of Saylors Creek on Wednesday
Saylor's Creek
After exploring the Sailors Creek we will head to Appomattox and Paradise Lake Campground
PARADISE LAKE FAMILY CAMPGROUND - APPOMATTOX, VA where we will set up for the remaining days
On Thursday, April 8, my plan is to return to the area around Amelia Courthouse and continue back towards Appomattox along the path of Lees Retreat.
Friday April 9, is the actual anniversary of Lees' surrender to Grant. There will be events on Saturday and Sunday, the stacking of arms reenactment etc. Departure is to be determined.

So come one, come all .

If you need further details or conversation email or call. Thanks
Civil War Events April 2010

Tom Beitz
Riverton, NJ
856 829-3598
tfbeitz@juno.com

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Old 02-28-2010, 06:37 PM   #80
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Carol,
There are lots of ways of handling costs... for those of you that don't know Frank, for quite some time, he has been cooking full breakfasts at the rallies he attends. He does this with no obligation to pay, but will accept contributions if offered. I doubt he keeps a dollar for dollar accounting, but I think he takes care of breakfast and folks take care of him. It's been my personal experience that this is a great way to do things. Last July, we did a practice run for this years Birthday Bash. The four host families along with a few other contributors did our darnedest to put on the best event we knew how. We were paid back many times over in gratitude and at the end of the weekend we all still had enough money in our wallets to get home.

This year, we have kicked it up a few notches... there is a cost up front, but the return on investment for the attendees will be not outdone by any event available... at least that is our goal... you'll have to ask folks this summer how we did.

TAC is an outgrowth of this kind of approach. It is our hope that our approach is duplicated across North America... I think the membership response indicates that this may be the case. Only time will tell... all I can say, based on my experience, that anybody that takes on the task of sharing in this way with their Airstream friends will not be disappointed.
Thank you for taking the time with me still, but I have NEVER had an issue with rally costs! I am not an idiot or a mooch. Honest. And please feel free to stop addressing my post. I would rather not be on the end I am on at this point. I repeat the costs of running the club was what I was questioning. If you review the entire thread you will be better able to see the progression and appreciate the context. Club operating costs, i.e., web expenses and insurance, etc., and rally costs are very different entities. However Ken's link was a simple answer to my question. Why no one else can make dinstinctions and understand what I am talking about is a hidden mystery to me Movements, passions, no dues, free...perhaps I am not all washed up in my thinking afterall :

Plymouth, New York USAEstablished2010DuesNo dues. This is a passion. There will be gatherings and these gatherings have a cost. Everyone will pitch in to a kitty to cover the event costs when they are planned, thus the kitty will become your dues! There's always a cost. We pay as we go and everyone chips in. No one gets a free ride!Coordinators62overlander, robandzoe Webpage
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:32 PM   #81
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Even "no rules" is a rule against rules. It's a logical impossibility, but quite in line with human nature. Creating a club with a logo means there's some rules—the name is a rule, the logo may be. The numbers, although assigned with great flexibility, have some sort of unspoken rule imbedded—it's your number and someone else can't use it (what would they do with it?). "Take the high road"—is it a hope, a suggestion, a rule?

When a club is created, there are all sorts of assumptions and unspoken rules. Since they are hidden, everyone has a different idea of what they are. That leads to disputes. Then rules are written down and called constitutions, bylaws, articles of association or whatever. People don't agree what those writings mean, so someone has to decide what they mean. To prevent petty tyrants from taking over, appeal processes are created. "Due process" is spoken of.

Rules can be good or bad, can be administered fairly or unfairly, bent and broken, avoided. Although people try to write good ones that can't be subverted, sometimes bad people get control and subvert or ignore them. Just look at HOA's and see how good rules are turned into crazy ones.

Americans have always liked clearly stated rules. It's tradition going back to the Magna Carta. Even the wagon trains that settled the west always had a "constitution" to regulate the trip and the wagon master. There's a belief/fear that without such documents idiots or evil people will take over.

Adding to this is the eventual desire for money to pay expenses and deal with insurance/liability question.

I don't know how this will sort out, but there is inevitably a desire for rules. It's hard wired into the American (and Canadian) consciousness. Maybe TAC can do it without rules. It will be very different than what most of us are used to. I am trained in rule interpreting and writing, so for me to visualize a rule-less club it very difficult. But everyone is trained in rules—an electrician has rules of how electricity works and the NEC; a business person knows the rules of economics and how people function together; a cook knows the rules of cooking.

To do this without rules will be a stretch beyond ourselves. Americans are always saying they hate rules, we are independent, but the truth is we feel safe with them. I think we really just want to make the rules and everyone else should obey them.

Gene
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:38 PM   #82
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Most things will take care of themselves. Planning only gets in the way and encourages a demand for compliance. We be off the Plantation now and I for one will keep it that way. If that's too scary for you then just don't come along. You'll miss a whole lot of fun.
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:22 AM   #83
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Some fairgrounds require it to protect themselves from liability issues.
Yes they do. Their insurance company insists on it. I rent a fairgrounds in NH twice a year for an event and we are required to provide a certificate of insurance in their favor in the amount of 1 MIL in general liability insurance. Just as a coincidence a copy of our certificate of insurance is on my desk as I write this.

This becomes the primary policy. Their insurance is still in force of course but if there are any claims they are made against our insurance first.

The good news is that this insurance is relatively inexpensive. Our annual policy is $350.00 and it covers both our events. We are set up as a Vermont not-for-profit corporation. (Note: there is a difference between a "non-profit" and a "not-for-profit" corporation). However we are NOT tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. This is another area that I do not wish to get into but suffice it to say that in my opinion there is more potential for problems than it is worth.

You don't have any negotiating power when dealing with a fair association to rent their grounds. It's very simple; you either accept their terms or you don't rent the grounds. You need them a lot more than they need you.
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Old 03-03-2010, 07:13 AM   #84
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Even "no rules" is a rule against rules. It's a logical impossibility, but quite in line with human nature......To do this without rules will be a stretch beyond ourselves. Americans are always saying they hate rules, we are independent, but the truth is we feel safe with them. I think we really just want to make the rules and everyone else should obey them.
Face it, there have to be some rules. When we started doing NEAR-Fest we also wanted to have "no rules" but very soon learned that it wasn't realistic. The Fair Association laid down some basic non-negotiable rules in their contract that I signed to rent their fairgrounds and we had to pass these along to our attendees. These included no alcohol and no open fires which are standard requirements in any contract they sign with anyone renting their grounds. Town by-law prohibits any form of consumable alcohol on the grounds and violators will be arrested if they are caught by the police. (The only place you can legally consume alcohol in the fairgrounds is inside a trailer ;~)

These rules are one thing; us enforcing them is another. We publicize them in our handouts, on our Web site and even print them right on the tickets. However we don't peek into everyone's coolers to see if there are a few brewskits lurking inside. We have performed "due dilligence" and the fair committee is satisfied.

However we do enforce the "no open fires" rule because it makes sense given the fairgrounds is 130 years old, the buildigs are made of wood and there are millions of dry pine needles everywhere. This also includes no smoking inside any of the buildings. We take this very seriously because the fair committee takes it very seriously. Failure to scrupulously enforce this would get us kicked out never to return. So we have two retired firefighters who are our Fire Wardens making sure that all cooking fires are properly and safely enclosed in an approved appliance. Their word is law on the subject and anyone who does not follow their direction will be asked to leave.

Sadly, whenever you get a few thousand people together there always will be a few ani who constantly need adult supervision. It's human nature.

The reality of it is: If you have a group of people together you will need some common-sense rules to maintain some kind of decorum and a safe environment. Just keep it to a minimum and you'll be okay.

The TAC seems to be a product of some pretty level-headed people and I for one agree to follow whatever guidelines they deem necessary to ensure everyone has a safe and good time at their events.
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