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Old 02-27-2010, 09:05 AM   #29
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4CU charges $1/yr...well, that's after the somewhat larger yearly stipend...dues are inevitable, but overhead should be minimal.
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:20 PM   #30
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I think we all understand in todays world "AINT NUFFIN FREE" so I think donations would be in order. If everyone knows what we are donating too. Like website time or software or things of that nature. Things that cost money and Cant be avoided. It different than me sending money to an unknown ,so they can travel for free.
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:27 PM   #31
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I think it should be about fair value.

I don't mind contributing a reasonably significant amount as long as I know it isn't mostly to pay for someone else's free ride.
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:31 PM   #32
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I thought we were complete. You completed me at Hello. Someone has a shopping list already?

People should always pay their own way and I think will gladly do so. What are the anticipated expenses in running TAC? You saved a lot on the promotion and already have members.

So far there has not been any expense, am I correct? Only volunteerism. Problems begin when active volunteers decide what the average member can shoulder.

Pay as you go and don't spend what you don't have, I think, is pretty fiscally sound advice.

Do we need more anything? I was not aware. Additional aspirations perhaps should be disclosed ASAP and before sign ups. What exactly will the TAC ride be, that aint free?
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Old 02-27-2010, 01:02 PM   #33
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Am suggesting the "pay as you go, pass the hat, pot luck menu" system for financing the operation. The less the government, the better the government. Where have I heard that before? H.D.T.?

Hoping no one expects fluorescent green letters on our Airstream.

Doug and Cheryl
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Old 02-27-2010, 01:42 PM   #34
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Do we need to have blanket liability insurance so the organizers of any caravans or rallies can be protected from suits against them personally in this sue happy country? Some venues require insurance for organized rallies.
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Old 02-27-2010, 01:46 PM   #35
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Question What are we doing?

Someone set up a club with no rules, and already we are discussing what the rules for financing should be. And that is not the first suggested rule in this thread.
My understanding was that "there are no rules".

I, for one will resist any attempt to organize by ignoring it.

(this post does not count, because I am just stating my position)

From now on I will ignore. I shall maintain a state of ignorance.

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Old 02-27-2010, 02:28 PM   #36
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Even "no rules" is a rule against rules. It's a logical impossibility, but quite in line with human nature. Creating a club with a logo means there's some rules—the name is a rule, the logo may be. The numbers, although assigned with great flexibility, have some sort of unspoken rule imbedded—it's your number and someone else can't use it (what would they do with it?). "Take the high road"—is it a hope, a suggestion, a rule?

When a club is created, there are all sorts of assumptions and unspoken rules. Since they are hidden, everyone has a different idea of what they are. That leads to disputes. Then rules are written down and called constitutions, bylaws, articles of association or whatever. People don't agree what those writings mean, so someone has to decide what they mean. To prevent petty tyrants from taking over, appeal processes are created. "Due process" is spoken of.

Rules can be good or bad, can be administered fairly or unfairly, bent and broken, avoided. Although people try to write good ones that can't be subverted, sometimes bad people get control and subvert or ignore them. Just look at HOA's and see how good rules are turned into crazy ones.

Americans have always liked clearly stated rules. It's tradition going back to the Magna Carta. Even the wagon trains that settled the west always had a "constitution" to regulate the trip and the wagon master. There's a belief/fear that without such documents idiots or evil people will take over.

Adding to this is the eventual desire for money to pay expenses and deal with insurance/liability question.

I don't know how this will sort out, but there is inevitably a desire for rules. It's hard wired into the American (and Canadian) consciousness. Maybe TAC can do it without rules. It will be very different than what most of us are used to. I am trained in rule interpreting and writing, so for me to visualize a rule-less club it very difficult. But everyone is trained in rules—an electrician has rules of how electricity works and the NEC; a business person knows the rules of economics and how people function together; a cook knows the rules of cooking.

To do this without rules will be a stretch beyond ourselves. Americans are always saying they hate rules, we are independent, but the truth is we feel safe with them. I think we really just want to make the rules and everyone else should obey them.

Gene
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Old 02-27-2010, 02:38 PM   #37
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Good Sam buys blanket liability insurance for their unit leaders and charges them $6 per member annually. If you attend 6 rallies a year that is only $1 per rally. The limit on an individual liability is $1,000,000. That is in line with what many fairgrounds require.
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Old 02-27-2010, 02:46 PM   #38
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Think about what is going on here. I am not going to worry about rules or any other club. Money will be paid if there is a get together I go to, which somebody is hosting and money is a requirement. Maybe money will have to be paid, maybe not.

Don't freak out if you are a person who lives by rules. What rules you have in your airstream space is your rules. Let the club evolve the way it was set up. Somebody might require money for a fundraiser for a good cause and you may or may not want to participate. Somebody may require money because they are going provide food and drink. Your choice to go and if you don't want to pay then don't go.

I think the logo is pretty cool, but somebody may make a different kind of logo for a chapter or for their own personal trailer. That is the beauty of this club. If I go camping I sure do not want to sit in a meeting or have a pow wow about rules or Robert Rules of Order. Keep it simple

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Old 02-27-2010, 02:58 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothlorian View Post
Keep it simple

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A good rule. My point was about what almost always happens when a club is formed and to do it differently is a challenge.

I actually find Robert's Rules fascinating and I promise never to bring a copy with me to a rally or gathering. My experience with them is that people misinterpret or ignore them to impose their will on a meeting and I have to speak up to show how they are to be used to protect democracy.

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Old 02-27-2010, 02:58 PM   #40
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Insurance Liability Coverage

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
Good Sam buys blanket liability insurance for their unit leaders and charges them $6 per member annually. If you attend 6 rallies a year that is only $1 per rally. The limit on an individual liability is $1,000,000. That is in line with what many fairgrounds require.
Dwightdi is raising a good point that should be considered. Are rally, campout (whatever you want to call it) organizers putting themselves at risk in organizing an activity without liability coverage. I have a concern about this. I believe that having coverage would foster more rallies. Then there would be the question of how do you pay for it in a club with no dues. Also who would be covered?

Beyond insurance liablilty premiums and expenses for hosting and maintaining a website I wouldn't think that TAC would need much else for expenses. I believe that the club will need to address this issue one way or the other.

Food for thought.
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Old 02-27-2010, 02:59 PM   #41
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Raining on the parade...

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That is it exactly. Open to anyone that wants to attend or participate.

I do see that many like the free aspect of this club. Do be warned that in the future we may need some donations to cover some operating expenses. No one will be required to pay anything though, and this will be purely voluntary and on a donation basis. It will also be "in the future"

For now, you can contribute by hosting a gathering somewhere in your area...
There is a reason why organizations, like clubs, incorporate.

Primarily incorporation protects ANYONE who puts something of value, for any reason, into the organization. Donations, dues, whatever. It all has a monetary value. Any time money is put into an organization the people who provide the money are, in the eyes of the law, liable for the things the organization does.

In business parlance, this means that anyone who has their own business, a sole proprietorship, is responsible for any and all things that the entity (organization/business) does. This also means that there is no legal definition separating the person from the function. Incorporation provides a legal basis for keeping an organization/business separate from personal assets.

What this really means is a persons personal belongings can be taken to satisfy the debts of the organization/business if the business is not otherwise protected by law.

Anyone who donates money, or anything else, to TAC is liable for any/all debts that TAC takes on. This includes things that no one ever wants to talk about - law suits.

Incorporation provides protection to the people who operate the organization/business as well as those who are members. Traditionally members pay dues either in the form of money, time/labor and/or donations.

I hope TAC members here realizes what they are getting into should they choose to donate ANYTHING to any organization that has no protection for the members personal assets in the eyes of the law.

Until TAC is incorporated everyone is at risk; especially those who are driving the effort.

Please take this in the manner it is intended which is to provide information that people can now absorb and use to do their own research and come to their own conclusion(s).

Please do not take my word for this. And do not take the word of anyone stating otherwise.

Look up the laws in your state; they will vary for every state but are similar enough that they are essentially the same throughout the county. They definitely are uniform at the federal level.

This is one more reason why it is important to research states in which to incorporate; some are better than others.

Jim

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Old 02-27-2010, 03:22 PM   #42
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If I have a party at my house and somebody falls down the stairs I am at risk. If a little kid comes into my yard and sticks a fork into the outside electical outlet I am at risk. Why am I at risk? Well they may have a good lawyer and I may not. I found out a long time ago waivers in some courts don't mean anything and neither does the law in writing if the other person has a good lawyer. The law is the law but a good lawyer that is against you can win in his favor. Yes this is true. I found that out the hard way. Law in the books can be disregarded and I was told I might be right so take it to court. Yeah it may take five years to win and you might win but the cost may bankrupt you in the process. That is what I was told by that lawyer and my lawyer said he was right. I was told I had a good case, but that lawyer could tie it up for five years. Do I bankrupt my family, possibly lose everything to prove the law. You must be kidding.

As far as I am concern the law in this land is sacred, but it does not mean much if the other person has a good lawyer and has the finance. They cover their own. David and Goliath. Goliath usually wins.

Brian

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