TAC Mission Statement discussion

[norsea]

Originally Posted by Dave Park

<SNIPY>

I've said before that I think another club needs to exist.

<SNIPPY>

I have no patience for politics. TAC isn't about politics. It's about diplomacy. It's about inviting people to get along, co-operatively and voluntarily. Some people just aren't equipped to do that.

So, let me outline a new idea:

WBCCI continues as is. TAC continues as is. A new club, let's call it "Airstreamers' Camping Club" (ACC) *grins* is incorporated.

ACC would be a family-focused club that charges $25/year in dues. It organizes itself as a non-profit and follows a least-cost path. It gets basic liability insurance to cover members/guests at events. It treats everyone the same, with no special benefits for anyone. It has three officers, who have two year terms and a two term limit, then a one-term furlough. It organizes events across the ENTIRE country, focusing on providing the best camping experience it can at the most affordable prices. It has no committees, no deficits are allowed, and expenses are limited. It communicates electronically. It has minimal rules, mainly aimed at regulating the people who run it, rather than limiting those who want to enjoy it.

To my mind, a club like that would need about 1,000 members to provide the most basic services, and once it had 2,000+ members it would be able to organize frequent national, regional and local events.

It's not unrealistic. It just requires three people who agree the plan to start it.

The main obstacle is getting those three like-minded people PMing each other.

If such a group forms, it will have my full support and paid membership. I'd continue with TAC also, and continue doing the magazine until it's more established (if a club that refuses to establish itself can become more established!)

Dave,

I agree about the need for another club.

I am all about a club being inclusive, not exclusive.

For example, if you have to own an Airstream product to be a member of a club, that club is exclusive.

If, on the other hand, the only requirement for membership is to further the goals of the organization this means that anyone can become a member and, as a result, the organization is inclusive.

Each of these are hot buttons for a lot of folks on this here forum. Each are entitled to think as they wish as well as establish an organization that they would like to be part of.

Along the same lines (reminds me of the "tastes great, less filling" beer adds a few years ago) we have folks who THINK that organization equals politics.

In both of these two examples each group is entitled to its thoughts. But, never the twain shall meet.

I also have sufficient experience with social organizations to understand that anyone who is involved in one at any level (this means being a mere member) is liable for any and all liabilities that the organization incurs.

There are many on this here forum who have no legal training and no personal experience with having been involved with a social organization that, for whatever reason, found itself embroiled in a law suit who decry the need for incorporation.

Because I have had the misfortune to participate in such a debacle I will not affiliate myself with any organization that does not care enough about its members personal assets to incorporate.

This too is another item like the two referenced above where, unfortunately IMNSHO, some people will never see the need for incorporation.

I refuse to put everything we have worked for our entire lives at risk by associating with any organization that does not provide the basis for protecting not only its officers but its members assets and this is the basis for incorporation.

As a result, I made a point, by way of PM's to Rob, to find out if he had plans to incorporate TAC or not. I am sad to say that he never replied to my inquiries. This ultimately led me to submit my resignation from the organization. He never responded to this request either.

I tried two years ago to muster interest on this here forum in the formation of a new club. To this day this is something that I would like to see because I too agree that there is a need for an alternative to the WBCCI.

As currently structured, or not, TAC does not work for me due to the liability issues associated with such an organization.

I also agree with you that organization does not have to lead to political drama. But, where we differ, is that I don't think three people are sufficient to provide the necessary checks and balances an organization needs. Lots of reasons for this but it is just to easy for three people to conspire. And, it will not take long before three people will become so run down that they will not be able to accomplish anything.

So, I will step up to the plate as I did two years ago and ask who else would like to see an Airstream club formed that does have structure and organization? If TAC should choose to go this route I would be willing to help build such an organization.

If TAC does not want to go this way I am willing to work with other like mined souls to build such an Airstream club. Now that Airstream has authorized the use of its name in TAC perhaps they would be willing to allow other clubs to do so as well.

Jim

[Gene]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

You and Gene are both wonderfully idealistic, if not a bit naive.

Hamp', that's twice you've called me idealistic and maybe once perhaps naive. I thought personal attacks weren't permitted. Is this the Spanish Inquisition? Will the comfy chair and soft pillows be my fate?

With Dave's new club and the old groovy TAC, we are on the road to a 1,000 flowers blooming. I think even a simply organized group of a 1,000 or so is a lot of work for the volunteers, but go for it. If you want nonprofit status, you'll have to have some sort of organic document—articles of association (for an unincorporated association) or articles of incorporation are the usual ones. You can have 3 directors rotating duties (when you eventually know what you're doing, switch). It'll take building it up and collecting some cash to afford insurance, reasonably normal looking articles and bylaws to control the directors. You can call them trustees which has a nice sound, but trustees can be bad people just like directors.

From experience I can tell you keeping a group going will eventually lead to burn out. If 20% of the members do 80% of the work, I think 5% do 75%. The role of the 80% of members is either to complain or do nothing toward keeping it going.

If I were eager to get something going with some organization, I'd start with a geographical area such as the southwest. When there are enough regional groups, then a coalition of them can put on larger rallies.

All ideas are worth pursuing, though since we rarely go to rallies, we have no need for a national $25 club, and not much more for a $0 club. The Forum provides opportunities for rallies anyway.

Gene

[hampstead38]

Actually, Gene, I thought "idealistic" was a compliment... though perhaps the word has different connotations in legal profession.

There wasn't a "TAC" until Rob and Frank decided they had enough of the WBCCI. Because they are well known (and well liked) in the Airstream community, people were excited about TAC. But let's be honest, folks, no one really knows what being "dead serious about having fun" means. It's turned into a kind of Airstream Rorschach test. Everyone sees the TAC ink blot differently.

I suspect--on some level--the formless TAC is simply a reaction to the hyper-structured WBCCI, a way Frank, Rob and others can say, "Hey, we have our own cool club, thank you very much." And for TAC continue, maybe all it needs to be is the anti-WBCCI.

You strike me as a bright guy, Dave. Jim has made some excellent points as well. (My unbounded admiration for Gene is well established. ) What you (Dave) and Jim are talking about is a viable Airstream-based club with some basic organizational structure and some rules to prevent it from calcifying into the WBCCI... but having more substance and shape than TAC. Honestly, I don't think you need a 1000 members. I think 200 members paying $25 a year would cover a basic liability policy and some mundane administrative costs.

Here's the thing, though. What I suggest is developing a fairly well thought out plan so everyone knows exactly what the program is. You could use the forums advertise, get a website up and use the Airforums to see if there is sufficient interest. The key is finding a value-added not available through the forums and avoiding the "buzz kill" of the WBCCI. Actually, I don't think it would be terribly hard. While I appreciate your good intentions, Dave, it's much easier to say "This is our club" than it is to get a room full of people to agree on anything. As I'm fond of saying in my real job, I can't get a room full of people to agree on free beer and pizza.

[Gene]

Jim, we posted at the same time and covered some of the same issues.

I can add that I was on the board of a regional organization that was sued in what I thought was a frivolous lawsuit. A past executive director had dropped directors and officers insurance to save some money and I could not convince the board we needed this insurance. I should have left the board. In the end it didn't save anything, it cost a lot. I was also sued as part of this and some present and former employees were sued. My homeowners' insurance covered me, but no one else had the same insurance coverage. It was time consuming, emotionally difficult, and because most of these things end in settlements to make things go away, monetarily expensive for everyone but me. I was a volunteer who donated money and valuable time to this organization—Every good deed must not go unpunished

These things do happen.

Just because some people, most people perhaps, do not sue when they are injured, it does not mean that everyone feels the same way. A frivolous lawsuit is filed to get a settlement and often does. If you did nothing wrong, it does not matter. You can be sued for negligently choosing a campground where someone could get hurt. People have different expectations—for some a boondocking site is dangerous and because they are very urbanized, they are fairly likely to get hurt. They may blame you. When you sponsor a rally and post it on the internet, you will get strangers, some may be clumsy, some may have children that always are in trouble, some may be borderline psychotic—you do not know what you are getting. Mostly these things don't happen. Sometimes they do and what you have at risk far outweighs the cost of membership dues to an organization that has insurance for rallies. And sometimes you may be negligent (we all make mistakes) and someone should or could sue you.

So those things happen too.

An insurance company insuring rallies will have it's own rules that the club will have to enforce.

So would you drive a car without insurance, have no insurance on your trailer or your home? If so, you are a risk taker and wouldn't feel the need for insurance. Let no one get the idea I like insurance companies—I don't. I have seen them act fairly and act horribly. Health insurance companies are the worst in my opinion, but any can be good or bad. They do perform a service and provide a risk pool.

I go back and forth on these issues of organization—anarchy is soooo appealing. We can all wear flowers in our hair (or what's left of it) and call it The Aquarius Club. We can have loveins instead of rallies.

But, maybe it can't work that way. Jim knows I change my mind all the time on this. I still like the idea of seeing how this evolves via the Forum, and I think it is. Dave, thanks for bringing this up and good that you have thick enough skin to deal with the flames.

Gene

[WineStream]

Originally Posted by garry

Many times I have heard the quote "To little to late".

Guess for some folks this thread is "To much to soon" .

Organizing TAC may be tabled for now but current leaders will be looking for relief or assistance sometime down the road and I would hate for folks to drop out as one of them may be a future leader or providing needed assistance as the club moves forward.

I wish I could ave thought of so few words myself to say that. But, as anyone who participates in the threads that I do knows; I am rarely less than a couple paragraphs.

I chose not to multi-quote because typically that takes more time than I'm willing to deal with but I'll just say that I read all posts up-to-current before posting this one. The point that I have been trying to convey from the beginning of this thread is that this just isn't the right time for this thought process. And finally, hopefully the light will be seen by combining garry and Dave's posts. Dave, you said that there needs to be at least 1000 members to get a new dues-paying club going. How many members does TAC have right now? You know because not only did you read the latest newsletter, but you wrote it! How close is the TAC to being your 1000 people? If 1000 people are needed, then how can you expect the TAC to fit your model when the TAC is presently at 1/3 of that? Insert garry's post of "too much too soon" and hopefully a moment not unlike that in the Blue Brothers comes to your life and you hear from someone behind you: "do you see the light?!?" Now, if you proceed to go to TAC and other rallies saying that you're "on a mission from God" then don't blame me. But I will find it quite humorous.

I'm not about to jump TAC-ship. After all, it costs me nothing to stay in. I hope that someday TAC does become "a real club" (scenes of Pinocchio come to mind, anyway...). When it does, I'm sure there will be officers, there will be business documents, there will be a mission statement, and there will be dues, and insurance. But, right now TAC is young, we're havin' fun, and many of us being fresh out of or almost out of WBCCI; we'd like to not deal with the organizational stuff for a while. People are feeling pushed by your prodding and for some it's too touchy to even mention right now; hence the "I'm leaving" or "I might quit" posts. OK, so be it. I'm not sure who posted it earlier; but there is going to be a certain percentage that's fringe and will take their ball and go home the first time they get PO'd.

As for when's the right time for TAC to become more official, I don't know for sure what the trigger will be. It surely won't be a membership count. I think it will be when Rob and Frank both are tired of being the point-men and they will publicly offer up for someone to take over and thereby start the track-record of something like a presidency. Until then, it should be hands off. Right now, it seems like writing a mission statement or organizing regions, etc. is like trying to steal the ball from your own teammate.

[Byams55FlyCl]

Originally Posted by WineStream

... TAC IS different today. Let's not change that by making regions or mission statements or other political / administrative stuff.

Exactly!

Please stop pushing for TAC to change into a 1970's club with a 1990's mission statement.

All any TAC newsletter needs is to to share when camping events are planned, and camping fun that was enjoyed.

[hampstead38]

But, right now TAC is young, we're havin' fun, and many of us being fresh out of or almost out of WBCCI; we'd like to not deal with the organizational stuff for a while. People are feeling pushed by your prodding and for some it's too touchy to even mention right now

It's a conversation. Dave asked some questions. If for no other reason than that Dave is one of the few people who's actually contributed something to TAC, I extended to him the courtesy of responding. What I've seen so far are a handful of people trying to have a reasonable, civil discussion about the formation of a club... and others having an overly sensitive reaction to what is essentially a philosophical discussion.

Hey, I'm sorry some of you have been (or still are) WBCCI members and that you are hyper-sensitive to anything resembling structure. I don't understand how people who haven't really done anything to build TAC yet can be so possessive over a club that really only exists as an idea.

I think you are on to something, Dave. Let TAC be the "anti-WBCCI." Find some of the most reasonable folks on the forum, people like Gene and Jim, and convince them to help you. Use your time, energy and newsletter editing talents furthering a cause or club you believe and let the TAC folks "do their own thing." I think there's room for a great Airstream club. I don't have any hopes for the WBCCI. TAC may evolve into something great, but right now the cart is in front of the horse... and unless Rob or Frank step in, that's where it's going to stay.

You are a bright guy, Dave, and you seem very reasonable. I think you have the right gut instinct on what would make for a great Airstream club.

[Gene]

If I recall correctly, some people said they were withdrawing because of liability concerns. While at one time this was a legitimate concern, it may no longer be.

TAC is an unincorporated association, probably, depending on state law. TAC appears to be nonprofit and most such unincorporated associations are, though a for profit unincorporated association is not unknown. You don't need any bylaws, constitutions, or articles of association to be such an association. The law recognizes that people group to accomplish things and there are court cases describing responsibilities and duties. At one time they were compared to partnerships and as a result, every member was responsible for acts of the association if claims were made against it. This was the common law rule.

This is changing. A model or uniform unincorporated association act was prepared some years ago by the American Bar Ass'n and some states have adopted it though they may have amended it or deleted parts. It protects members from liability for the acts of the association. In states where the act has not been adopted, legislation or courts may have changed the common law rule.

The law on this type of association is fluid. TAC seems to be headquartered in NY, so the law in that state probably applies. Colorado has adopted the model act, but what is true elsewhere I don't know.

Gene

[Dave Park]

This type of law is not part of the UCC, and has not been adopted by most states. States that do adopt UCC laws have strict liability.

Also, I can sue someone for calling the sky pink, if I like. They still have to go to the expense of defending the claim, or risk losing by default - unless the claim is so outlandish that the Judge dismisses it.

Some people aren't looking for protection against liability arising from losing the lawsuit - they're looking to avoid being the target of a lawsuit in the first place.

However, we're drifting away from the main topic of the thread - a TAC Mission Statement.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Dave Park

This type of law is not part of the UCC, and has not been adopted by most states. States that do adopt UCC laws have strict liability.

Also, I can sue someone for calling the sky pink, if I like. They still have to go to the expense of defending the claim, or risk losing by default - unless the claim is so outlandish that the Judge dismisses it.

Some people aren't looking for protection against liability arising from losing the lawsuit - they're looking to avoid being the target of a lawsuit in the first place.

However, we're drifting away from the main topic of the thread - a TAC Mission Statement.

Dave,

The issue has been raised even though the thread was about mission statements. The uniform or model act should be in the corporations or business organizations code. I think it would supersede the UCC. True that anyone can be sued, but it's unlikely a shareholder of a corporation would be sued because the law is so clear if the newer laws have been adopted, and this would be a parallel situation. The law on this is difficult to understand. I was trying to educate about a dense issue and maybe should have left it sleep.

Liability is a big deal and a prime motivator behind some people's non-involvement in rally sponsorship or the club itself.

Gene

[Dave Park]

I agree that we need a better understanding of the liability issue, and any informed comment is welcomed.

[JStanley]

Forgive me for digressing a little or suggesting a different tack.
Wouldn’t a “Bill of Right” be just as important than a mission statement?
We want longevity- -right? Hasn’t that served the USA well over the years?

And if someone else wanted to draw attention to themselves they could start a new thread asking for discussions on something like the following:
What would you like to see in the “TAC Bill of Rights”?

[TouringDan]

I like the way TAC has evolved so far. To me it is basically this forum and informal Airstream Rallies around the country. I used to go to a lot of BMW rallies on my motorcycle. They were much larger than the Airstream rallies, but the draw was the same- meet up with like minded people, make new friends and check out there motorcycles and camping gear. I went to the Metro Detroit rally this year and had a great time- made some new friends and saw some neat trailers. I believe in the saying " if it is not necessary to change then it is necessary not to change". I like the club just the way it is. Let it evolve as it needs to evolve.

Dan

[Frank's Trailer Works]

WOW, I just do not know what to say... For the past 14 days I have been banned from this Forum. I was foolish as to air my opinion of someone directly to them in what I thought to be the most private of manor. They did not appreciate it and complained. Thankfully, I have learned my lesson and will not do it again.

Many of you have been very busy debating how it should be. Some have been waiting for me to step in and give some guidance. So, here is what I am going to do... I am going to host a few rallies next year, try my best to contribute to the awesome newsletter Dave is putting out, and support as many Airstreamer's as I can in any of their needs. We started this club to create fellowship not rebel from the club with Mr Byam's name in it. We found that club lacking the needs of our families and instead of fighting the system, we went in our own direction. I honestly would appreciate if the constant comparisons between the two clubs would stop.

Time to stop talking and start camping.

Contrary to Mr Air's statement earlier, I find it VERY important for people to step up and volunteer. If everyone does a little, we all will benefit tremendously.
Did I answer anything here? No. I am just going to do what I think is right for me and my family. Hopefully, "WE" can have a good time together.

[robandzoe]

Well, the way I see it, TAC already has a mission statement... one that has resulted in over 360 people requesting membership.

The statement is listed here:

Airstream Forums - The Airstreamers Club (TAC)

And it states very simply:

Mission: To strive for and embrace a social network about "Just Camping" with your Airstream Product - ‘TO HAVE FUN” - whose sole purpose is the enjoyment of life through the ownership and utilization of the Iconic Travel Trailer - Airstream.

I STRONGLY believe in KISS and thus KISS it is!!

I asked Dave to start this thread... I said go for it.. we've got nothing to hide here in TAC and everything out in the open.... and want TAC members input on all things TAC. Members have spoken.... some want a TAC forum.. but from the start, it was stated that AIRforums is TAC's official forum for discussion. And we are using it to help us out. We even welcome non TAC members input so we know how others outside of TAC feel and see TAC. Thanks for that input.

So, for now, we'll keep TAC mission where it is... and keep TAC where it is.. but it will eventually evolve more into the club that's a blast to be in.

Remember TAC is about the FUN!!

I agree with Frank - let's GO CAMPING!!!

Rob

TAC NY-1

[Solar Stream]

I strongly agree with Frank and Rob and have really enjoyed the "FUN" at camping events we have experienced since signing on also the many friends we have met who have the same idea in mind about CAMPING. There is no need to turn the TAC into another out of control club so lets "GO CAMPING" share our experiences and welcome all that want the same kind of "FUN" for themselves and there families.

[Charlie M]

"I STRONGLY believe in KISS and thus KISS it is" !!
Thank you Frank and Rob!

[whitsend]

I think Frank & Rob & Crew have done a fabulous job setting up TAC. I also believe it is childish to think that some minor form of structure & protection isn't necessary.

I also think Dave is doing a fabulous job, producing a great initial newsletter even during the tragic loss of his Airstream. Keep it up Dave. You have way more support than some of the posts here might indicate.

TAC Rocks!!!

[Dave Park]

Thanks whitsend and everyone else. I can't describe the last two weeks in just words... My TW loss, flooding, and a broken tooth, antibiotic-resistant infection and resulting three and a half hour root canal... It has been hard to keep an even keel...

I am starting tomorrow on the October magazine. It's going to be amazing, and these threads will feed into it - you'll see, it'll make TAC much stronger and more solid than before...

[Frank's Trailer Works]

You know, previous to this thread I never gave a seconds thought to "mission statement" in any context. Didn't even know that companies and organizations had them. I thought a "mission statement" was something Catholic Charities or the Salvation Army had. Well now I see these "mission statements" every where. I must have noticed 20 "mission statements" posted publicly in the past week. Yesterday I was picking up materials at Stag Parkway(they supply your local RV shop, even the big one down the road with it's own catalog gets their stuff from Stag Parkway) and right there in the area you sign the picking ticket and invoice is their "mission statement ". The thing is framed rather nicely too I might add. So I read it. It says how they are gonna give the best service and products they can no matter how difficult it is. Those are not the words, but the jest of the "mission statement". This morning I go to research Precision Temp products and BAMM right there on page one of the RV/ Marine division is a "mission statement"

PrecisionTemp™ designs and manufactures high-efficiency gas powered hot water
and hydronic space heating systems that exceed performance expectations and environmental standards.

Our commitment to our customers is exceptional service and quality workmanship through dedication and innovation.

So now I am thinking maybe a "mission statement" is needed for my own company. I might even need one for me as an individual in society. The mere discussion of a "mission statement" got some very upset, even upset enough to quit a club with no dues and only two simple rules; make it what you want and make it fun for you.

I am still astounded that people are upset over wanting to organize even a little bit. I hope those free form members host a rally, for quickly they will find just how much organization it really takes. The Forums rallies are used as an example, a great deal, as not being part of an organized club, but I bet SoldierMedic will admit having 4 Forums rallies in Branson every year takes a bit of organization. In two weekends I am going to the Fall Colors Forum Rally. I know for sure Carl has had to do a good deal of work and organization for that one. I would imagine the biggest detractor on this thread about the TAC, has never actually hosted a rally himself. If he has, he has forgotten how much organization went into it. That is easy to do when you are having so much fun. I know I can barely remember the hours and hours of planning that went into pulling off the first Birthday Bash(the one to honor the founder of Airstream's 114th birthday and not to just use his image for our own gain as also implied) The Bash might have seemed spontaneous and free, but in reality it was very well planned out.

I am sure what I have said above will spark some of you. Discussion is a good thing. Rob and I both desire transparency and openness as normal operating procedure for the TAC. It was kind of part of our "mission statement" in starting this. Unlike other clubs the members input is VERY important. Before Mr Byam had a club named for him, he was the leader of a number of caravans. These were not motor tours around the sights like are offered today, these were epic adventures where few roads existed and travel trailers rarely went. He operated the caravan as a democracy. In an interview he was asked how the caravan was structured. The response was inspirational... "well, we take a vote. The minority always follows the majority votes. That's just how we do it"
I hope we as a club will continue to discuss issues. I hope we can also find out what the majority and minority want. That is why Dave started this thread, to find out what the members want.