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Old 09-02-2010, 05:39 PM   #29
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We vote for keeping it simple. A loose association! Just post up the rally and see who shows up!
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:37 PM   #30
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Yep, it worked for us. Right Tikiman??
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Old 09-02-2010, 11:05 PM   #31
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Yep, it worked for us. Right Tikiman??
Yep! Why mess with a good thing?
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Old 09-02-2010, 11:53 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
Personal view:

I think organization sucks. But...
Dave, I think you're a-funnin' us with that statement. You have suddenly gone on a one-man mission to write up a rulebook and structure that General Motors would be proud of.

Discounts? Goals, targets, finances? You really think that's why people want to get together and camp? Do you honestly believe that they need to worry about that stuff?

Now, I don't mean this as a criticism, Dave, since you do seem like a friendly guy, but I gotta side with Tintent, 2Air, Mikethefixit, Utee, CharlieM, Richinny and Tikiman who have posted in this thread that what you keep trying to instigate is neither needed or wanted!

A comment really hit home for me, when one poster said that writing a mission statement "sounds like work."

Why try to create complexity in an organization that was started, IIRC, as an alternative to the one YOU are trying to build? It was supposed to be loose and airy, free and easy. In fact, people picked their own (unnecessary) numbers, for example.

Relax, man. Take it easy. There's no need to turn the TAC into a race, where the most numbers, measures, and committees possible is good.

Travelling and camping; enjoying yourself. That can be much more fun than reading a balance sheet, can't it?
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:06 AM   #33
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There's a reason most human organizations have at least some structure. Even avante garde, iconoclastic, temporary events have some structure (see Burning Man). I don't see a need for a mission statement because I think people pretty much understand "The Airstream Club" is, well, a club about Airstreams. And, 99 percent of the time, the mission statement is filed and forgotten after it's written.

I do think there is a reasonable argument to lay out some "organizing principles." Obviously, one of the principles could be "Rules shall be kept to the absolute minimum necessary." That doesn't say you can't make a rule; it just establishes a principle, an ethos, if you will.

As for the GM statement, Aage... give me a break. This isn't about creating thousands of pages of processes and procedures. It's about making sure that there is some common, understood foundation for TAC. The "do your own thing" concept has been tried... it doesn't work and it isn't scalable. If the TAC is whatever people want it be, than it can a $1m Class A MoHo parked next to a tent parked next to a Shasta.

Fun is great. I've camped next to people who's only organized principle was having a good time. It was fun for them. For me, not so much. It is possible to have a group, a social club, with minimal structure and rules. I don't think it is possible, in the long run, to have one without them.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:09 AM   #34
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goals, targets, finances, large and small events, how often, how diverse, what kinds

Well, if I was alone in pointing out that this hard right turn to have "structure" was 180° away from what was originally put forth as the way the club would operate, I might agree with you.

But I'm not alone. Are you surprised?


Quote:
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As for the GM statement, Aage... give me a break. This isn't about creating thousands of pages of processes and procedures.
No, but it's a start. And anywaze, I told you a million times that I never egg-zadge-erate!

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It's about making sure that there is some common, understood foundation for TAC. The "do your own thing" concept has been tried... it doesn't work and it isn't scalable. If the TAC is whatever people want it be, than it can a $1m Class A MoHo parked next to a tent parked next to a Shasta.
Doesn't work? Folks seem to be doing it, and enjoying doing it. And why does it need to be "scalable"? I know, so you can have regions, VPs of everything, and lots and lots of committees

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Fun is great. I've camped next to people who's only organized principle was having a good time. It was fun for them. For me, not so much. It is possible to have a group, a social club, with minimal structure and rules. I don't think it is possible, in the long run, to have one without them.
We have before us a big, shining example of what goes wrong when people who like to bureaucratize everything get their way "in the long run". I thought that the people who started TAC didn't want to replicate that flawed model.

Am I wrong?
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:32 AM   #35
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Discounts? Goals, targets, finances? You really think that's why people want to get together and camp? Do you honestly believe that they need to worry about that stuff?
*grins* No, I don't. I personally don't really want those things. I want y'all to talk about those things so next year when someone asks, "Why is it this way?" we can say "Well, we had that discussion, look at it in that thread over there, open for all to see and join in." I'm not instigating FOR these things at all.

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Why try to create complexity in an organization that was started, IIRC, as an alternative to the one YOU are trying to build? It was supposed to be loose and airy, free and easy. In fact, people picked their own (unnecessary) numbers, for example.
I'm not trying to build anything. Truly. I'm not trying to steer TAC in any direction. I'm not one of those people who asks a question and only wants to hear a pre-determined answer. I'm really pleased at the consensus on subject.

I do feel that there is an element of risk in this structure (liability) and that there's an element of risk with any other structure too (organization, work, etc.) because there's risk in anything we do. Frankly, I am heartened by the broadness of the consensus on what TAC is about. It solves a lot of problems by simply deciding to not have them.

I am in a weird position. I am not an organizer of TAC, and don't want to be credited as such. I have had conversations with Rob and Frank where I have asked them about different options and explained the problems specific to the current structure - not to try to change it but simply to make sure the main volunteers properly understand the consequences. That's why I offered to do the magazine.

The magazine is "the public face of TAC" so I feel a desperate responsibility here - not just to accurately reflect the members' views, but to understand them myself and to accept them whether or not I agree with them. I'm in a position where I could do great service or great harm to the future of TAC, and I take that responsibility very, very seriously.

That is why I posted those posts with that wording - to invoke a discussion about those issues, not to promote them as a direction as much as to clearly rule them out. That's the whole point of TAC, isn't it? To know what we DON'T want to do as much as we do!

As a further insight into my thinking, I predict a new club will emerge in the next six to twelve months. It would be a fee-charging club that costs less than WBCCI, has a much simpler structure, a small number of officers and protections in place - legal and financial. It will have a well-formed idea of its purpose. Where it will gain members from TAC, who would remain TAC members as it's free, it will also eat into the WBCCI membership base but take membership fees from Wally. This will probably just leave the die-hard WBCCIers and the indifferent, and WBCCI would continue on for a considerable time as a less active club. The new club would make overtures to the sub-organizations of WBCCI, and some of them will affiliate with the new club.

In that context, TAC only ever needs to grow so big, and will have served its purpose. It's important to me that TAC becomes a permanent fixture on the rally calendar here at Airforums, and that people continue to go out and just have fun.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:53 AM   #36
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air forums (originally airstreamforums) has proven that post #33 is entirely off target.

8 years of rallies, road side assistance to streamers and of course ALL of the technical help.
_______

the forum IS a club it provides ALL of the structure, support, and connectivity that many folks need.

gatherings happen and the organizational side of THOSE events varies by rally and region.
_______

arf has had growing pains and MISsteps along the way.

the community has TRIED some things that just didn't take off, members essentially VOTING...

but either USING or NOT using the new features.

a monthly photo thread with someone NEW in charge each month (the winner) works...

a dedicated MONTHLY newletter/emag just for AIR did NOT work...

and so it goes.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f505...pan-62050.html

see pos #22 above /\ /\

and #45, #48 and especially #57 below \/ \/

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f505...ent-62049.html
_________

agee is TRYING to use humor to remind these new clubbers of their original advertised INTENT...

the problem is IF that publicly stated mission was/is REALLY the mission

and if the tiny membership will TOTALLY MORPH to a new mission.

doing that is OK if they wanna go that route.
__________

again it is important to understand WHY THIS fractional group happened or others have happened.
__________

as an example there were a few wb'ers in the southwest UNhappy with the local wb' unit and leadership.

BUT some of those unhappy folks WANTED insurance/protection/structure and AFFILIATION...

to the rich history of the wb' and the 1000s of other regular members.

so they formed a NEW unit, this happened quickly and was PARTLY done here on the forums.

ask the original 4CU why/how and what happened and if they are happy with their local creation.
_______

another group of dynamic somewhat different streamers in texas did the same thing but without much publicity.

the heart of texas camping unit ( HOT' C U ) was formed and has prospered...
_______

members here were made FUN OF for wanting a cyber unit, with minimal dues and open to ALL streamers nation/world wide...

a unit that COULD and WOULD conduct the mundane biz stuff online but still REALLY camp 2gether...

note particularly the posts from the principles and HOW their mockery/views have changed.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...nit-22293.html

some of the ideas were pretty rough, but a group in ohio took the best pieces added better pieces and now...

NOVA.

so NOVA now exists and is using exactly that approach

and has a mission which totally FILLS that borderless void in the old line club...

it IS a place MALs could now call home...nova.
_______

look a LOT of this stuff is EGO...

"my units better than yours"
"join my new club it's different"
"our rallies are BETTER than theirs"
"i can fix the wb' i am gonna be a great leader"
"we don't have the crap side issues"

"our POOO don't stink"
_______

it APPEARS this new free club is MORPHING into a "like a wb' unit" with...

-rules
-monthly calendar called a MAGAZINE (oh please)
-divisions by region or state
-ranking of events by size
-folks ASSIGNED to jobs
-regular requests to VOLUNTEER within the club...

and so on.

the basic difference being "free" of dues, the FREE really appeals to some.

but discussions of contributions, how to handle money are now happening too...

so FREE becomes a relative term.

can NON AIRSTREAM rv'ers join? can big ol' class A mohos owners join and rally?

inclusivity or EXclusivity, your choice...

AIRforums gatherings accept ALL comers in...

ALL rigs, or NO rigs, or just those who wanna camp and share....

__________

i honestly think for a LOT of these folks---NOT the ones intent on making a political statement...

simply starting a NEW/online nation wide wb' unit is a better use of their time and would RETURN more for their efforts.

long ago i asked a VAC member if/when/why they might ever consider SPLITTING from the wb' as a separate club...

the answer was very very helpful in understanding the relationships between...

SUB groups/intra clubs with in the wb that are FUN but unhappy with the PARENT club and INTERNATIONAL commanders...

READ posts #27 to about 33/34 here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...tml#post217810
________

these 'club threads' are a lot like axles, leaks, mice, fridges, tires and other common themes here....

its NOT the argument side that's common but the SOLUTIONS and newbie side...

because IF noobs don't read the archives of solutions and technical wisdom, they make the SAME MISTAKES over and over...

suggesting silicone, boxes on the rear, bike racks, UNDER inflated tires, poor hitches, INadequate tow vehicles...

is very similar to INVENTING new clubs that will leak, stress the frame, go flat or sway when towed...

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
...As a further insight into my thinking,

I predict a new club will emerge in the next six to twelve months. It would be a fee-charging club that costs less than WBCCI, has a much simpler structure, a small number of officers and protections in place - legal and financial. It will have a well-formed idea of its purpose.

Where it will gain members from TAC, who would remain TAC members as it's free, it will also eat into the WBCCI membership base but take membership fees from Wally.

This will probably just leave the die-hard WBCCIers and the indifferent, and WBCCI would continue on for a considerable time as a less active club.

The new club would make overtures to the sub-organizations of WBCCI, and some of them will affiliate with the new club...
here it goes again...

another new improved smaller better faster lighter smarter club intent on stealin' from the old log.

now WHERE are all those threads on STARTING A NEW CLUB...

on yeah dave, they ARE there, go fish...

"my clubz better than your club, my clubs better then yourz..."

yet another example of WHY airforums provide almost ALL the structure, organization and OPPORTUNITY to camp2gether...

that most folks here want/need and USE beyond the wb'...

with the NEXT REAL step being at the unit/vac/wb' level.

start a NEW wb' unit dave or visit a HOTcU gathering or FCU gathering...

OR attend a FORUM RALLY...

honestly the new unit starters are VERY HAPPY with their efforts and it only takes 10 folks...

wait, have u done ANY of those things yet ((camping with other streamers here?))

no offense intended but a tiny bit of that is useful, maybe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
...It's important to me that TAC becomes a permanent fixture on the rally calendar here at Airforums, and that people continue to go out and just have fun.
hasn't THAT already happened?

folks post RALLY details onto the calendar and it IS permanent in a cyberspace sorta way...

do you want SPECIAL attention for these 3 letter events?

maybe a different color font or BIGGER letters or HIGHer ranking on the calendar?

here's the deal

folks scan the calendar and look for gigs....

and THOSE 3 letters at the beginning serve to appeal to 300 people (probably many less)

but in reality they also serve to EXCLUDE 1000s upon 1000s of regular AIRFORUMS members...

can you IMAGINE how many folks might have attended the small regional 3 letter things...

IF they were simply AIR FORUM events?
_________

anyone can attend an AIR gig in anything (wearing anything) and for any number of days...

they don't have to DO anything but arrive.

wanna add food cool, wanna wave a flamingo cool, lights ok, sing or play a geetar GREAT!

take a hike, go fishing, got OUT to dinner or a pub together, did a kids thing, show a movie OUTDOORS...

it's all good!

but volunteering is totally voluntary.

lets try this another way...

HAVE YOU BEEN to an airforums event and NOT been happy or well treated or felt LACKING of something...

describe your experiences at an AIR event, please.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:19 PM   #38
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2air,

I'm not that interested in starting a new club - already found one that gives me something to do. You seem to be confused between discussions, predictions and plans.

I remember a time when you were talking about a new club. What happened to that?
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Old 09-03-2010, 01:31 PM   #39
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well confusion happens and i am regularly confused...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
...talking about a new club. What happened to that?
but got no idea what the reference might be...

1. this is texting not talking ((or did u attend an AIR event with TALKING about new clubs?))

2. there have been 100s of text exchanges here or a variety of affiliations...

so post a SPECIFIC link if ya really want an answer.

but try going back and reading/reply to the other recent posts, don't skip or deflect or avoid...

yeah, it's ok 2 do those things... if'n ya don't want 2 explore real issues.

but details and specifics ARE a lot more useful than innUendo.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-03-2010, 08:12 PM   #40
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I feel your pain, Dave.

As much as I've posted my opinions here...I think when it comes to our position on the question, I think we're on the same side.

You and I tend to do the same thing in many controversial situations. We ask the tough questions in order to get people to THINK. This is often interpreted as being a "jerk" or other more colorful terms but really what we're doing is merely asking people to stop, think, and formulate (and in this case, share) an opinion so that we can be sure than the vision of a handful of people does not become the not-totally-wanted vision of many others.

You ask the tough questions and you get labeled as the jerk that is trying to steer when you're just askin' people to use the ol' noggin.

Rest well Dave, you're going to take a lickin' on this one but you can always stop by my AS for a glass of wine.
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
We have before us a big, shining example of what goes wrong when people who like to bureaucratize everything get their way "in the long run". I thought that the people who started TAC didn't want to replicate that flawed model.

Am I wrong?
In a word, yes. First, there is no evidence that the people who have put time and energy into creating TAC "like to bureaucratize everything." In fact, it seems to me TAC was founded to create a more informal alternative to the WBCCI. Second, you provide a neat example of the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. There is no basis to presume that if TAC adopts some modest structure that it will inevitably evolve into another WBCCI. This is a bit like saying my uncle had a drink of whiskey and became an alcoholic so if you have a drink of whiskey, you'll end up as an alcoholic as well.

Again, the grand experiment of human groups with no rules, norms, expectations, sanctions, etc., has been tried, often with spectacularly bad results. Every group, including families, develop structures. I'm always amused by how bands of so-called rebels conform so tightly within their own group.

With Frank and Rob doing things, with the newsletter, with every decision and interaction, the TAC develops its own culture. What Dave is trying to do is make this development a more explicit process. He's a bright guy and he can see this culture, this ethos. But he's also cautious fellow, not wanting to presume he sees these things with complete accuracy. He doesn't want to codify TAC without some sort of collaborative process. This is wise, and appreciated (at least by me).

Understanding organizations--and human behavior--is what I do for a living. As a person who spends a great deal of time trying to deconstruct bureaucracy, I can appreciate your concerns. I understand the natural reticence about rules, structure, goals, etc. While your concerns are legitimate, your approach is not. Pretending that you can keep TAC as some kind of perfectly structureless entity simply is not reality.

In broad terms, Airforums is successful. Airforums manages to be successful despite having structure. I can't say I'm always thrilled with moderator decisions but the value of the forums exceeds any annoyance or inconvenience... at least for me. And it would seem for you... since you are here. And the last time I checked, this hasn't become the WBCCI forum. Call me a starry-eyed optimist, but I believe it is possible for a social club to evolve into something other than the WBCCI. In fact, I haven't seen anything quite like the WBCCI anywhere else.

So, to Dave, I'll jot down what I see as TAC's organizing principles... including an philosophical position that any rules, structure, etc., ought to be kept to the barest minimum possible.
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:58 PM   #42
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