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Old 09-13-2010, 10:57 AM   #127
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But, right now TAC is young, we're havin' fun, and many of us being fresh out of or almost out of WBCCI; we'd like to not deal with the organizational stuff for a while. People are feeling pushed by your prodding and for some it's too touchy to even mention right now
It's a conversation. Dave asked some questions. If for no other reason than that Dave is one of the few people who's actually contributed something to TAC, I extended to him the courtesy of responding. What I've seen so far are a handful of people trying to have a reasonable, civil discussion about the formation of a club... and others having an overly sensitive reaction to what is essentially a philosophical discussion.

Hey, I'm sorry some of you have been (or still are) WBCCI members and that you are hyper-sensitive to anything resembling structure. I don't understand how people who haven't really done anything to build TAC yet can be so possessive over a club that really only exists as an idea.

I think you are on to something, Dave. Let TAC be the "anti-WBCCI." Find some of the most reasonable folks on the forum, people like Gene and Jim, and convince them to help you. Use your time, energy and newsletter editing talents furthering a cause or club you believe and let the TAC folks "do their own thing." I think there's room for a great Airstream club. I don't have any hopes for the WBCCI. TAC may evolve into something great, but right now the cart is in front of the horse... and unless Rob or Frank step in, that's where it's going to stay.

You are a bright guy, Dave, and you seem very reasonable. I think you have the right gut instinct on what would make for a great Airstream club.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:55 PM   #128
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If I recall correctly, some people said they were withdrawing because of liability concerns. While at one time this was a legitimate concern, it may no longer be.

TAC is an unincorporated association, probably, depending on state law. TAC appears to be nonprofit and most such unincorporated associations are, though a for profit unincorporated association is not unknown. You don't need any bylaws, constitutions, or articles of association to be such an association. The law recognizes that people group to accomplish things and there are court cases describing responsibilities and duties. At one time they were compared to partnerships and as a result, every member was responsible for acts of the association if claims were made against it. This was the common law rule.

This is changing. A model or uniform unincorporated association act was prepared some years ago by the American Bar Ass'n and some states have adopted it though they may have amended it or deleted parts. It protects members from liability for the acts of the association. In states where the act has not been adopted, legislation or courts may have changed the common law rule.

The law on this type of association is fluid. TAC seems to be headquartered in NY, so the law in that state probably applies. Colorado has adopted the model act, but what is true elsewhere I don't know.

Gene
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:06 PM   #129
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This type of law is not part of the UCC, and has not been adopted by most states. States that do adopt UCC laws have strict liability.

Also, I can sue someone for calling the sky pink, if I like. They still have to go to the expense of defending the claim, or risk losing by default - unless the claim is so outlandish that the Judge dismisses it.

Some people aren't looking for protection against liability arising from losing the lawsuit - they're looking to avoid being the target of a lawsuit in the first place.

However, we're drifting away from the main topic of the thread - a TAC Mission Statement.
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:58 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
This type of law is not part of the UCC, and has not been adopted by most states. States that do adopt UCC laws have strict liability.

Also, I can sue someone for calling the sky pink, if I like. They still have to go to the expense of defending the claim, or risk losing by default - unless the claim is so outlandish that the Judge dismisses it.

Some people aren't looking for protection against liability arising from losing the lawsuit - they're looking to avoid being the target of a lawsuit in the first place.

However, we're drifting away from the main topic of the thread - a TAC Mission Statement.
Dave,

The issue has been raised even though the thread was about mission statements. The uniform or model act should be in the corporations or business organizations code. I think it would supersede the UCC. True that anyone can be sued, but it's unlikely a shareholder of a corporation would be sued because the law is so clear if the newer laws have been adopted, and this would be a parallel situation. The law on this is difficult to understand. I was trying to educate about a dense issue and maybe should have left it sleep.

Liability is a big deal and a prime motivator behind some people's non-involvement in rally sponsorship or the club itself.

Gene
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:33 PM   #131
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I agree that we need a better understanding of the liability issue, and any informed comment is welcomed.
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Old 09-13-2010, 05:52 PM   #132
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Bill of Rights ? ? ?

Forgive me for digressing a little or suggesting a different tack.
Wouldn’t a “Bill of Right” be just as important than a mission statement?
We want longevity- -right? Hasn’t that served the USA well over the years?

And if someone else wanted to draw attention to themselves they could start a new thread asking for discussions on something like the following:
What would you like to see in the “TAC Bill of Rights”?
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:22 PM   #133
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I like the way TAC has evolved so far. To me it is basically this forum and informal Airstream Rallies around the country. I used to go to a lot of BMW rallies on my motorcycle. They were much larger than the Airstream rallies, but the draw was the same- meet up with like minded people, make new friends and check out there motorcycles and camping gear. I went to the Metro Detroit rally this year and had a great time- made some new friends and saw some neat trailers. I believe in the saying " if it is not necessary to change then it is necessary not to change". I like the club just the way it is. Let it evolve as it needs to evolve.

Dan
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Old 09-16-2010, 07:46 PM   #134
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WOW, I just do not know what to say... For the past 14 days I have been banned from this Forum. I was foolish as to air my opinion of someone directly to them in what I thought to be the most private of manor. They did not appreciate it and complained. Thankfully, I have learned my lesson and will not do it again.

Many of you have been very busy debating how it should be. Some have been waiting for me to step in and give some guidance. So, here is what I am going to do... I am going to host a few rallies next year, try my best to contribute to the awesome newsletter Dave is putting out, and support as many Airstreamer's as I can in any of their needs. We started this club to create fellowship not rebel from the club with Mr Byam's name in it. We found that club lacking the needs of our families and instead of fighting the system, we went in our own direction. I honestly would appreciate if the constant comparisons between the two clubs would stop.

Time to stop talking and start camping.

Contrary to Mr Air's statement earlier, I find it VERY important for people to step up and volunteer. If everyone does a little, we all will benefit tremendously.
Did I answer anything here? No. I am just going to do what I think is right for me and my family. Hopefully, "WE" can have a good time together.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:02 PM   #135
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TAC - what is said

Well, the way I see it, TAC already has a mission statement... one that has resulted in over 360 people requesting membership.

The statement is listed here:

Airstream Forums - The Airstreamers Club (TAC)

And it states very simply:

Mission: To strive for and embrace a social network about "Just Camping" with your Airstream Product - ‘TO HAVE FUN” - whose sole purpose is the enjoyment of life through the ownership and utilization of the Iconic Travel Trailer - Airstream.

I STRONGLY believe in KISS and thus KISS it is!!

I asked Dave to start this thread... I said go for it.. we've got nothing to hide here in TAC and everything out in the open.... and want TAC members input on all things TAC. Members have spoken.... some want a TAC forum.. but from the start, it was stated that AIRforums is TAC's official forum for discussion. And we are using it to help us out. We even welcome non TAC members input so we know how others outside of TAC feel and see TAC. Thanks for that input.

So, for now, we'll keep TAC mission where it is... and keep TAC where it is.. but it will eventually evolve more into the club that's a blast to be in.

Remember TAC is about the FUN!!

I agree with Frank - let's GO CAMPING!!!

Rob

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Old 09-17-2010, 12:15 PM   #136
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I strongly agree with Frank and Rob and have really enjoyed the "FUN" at camping events we have experienced since signing on also the many friends we have met who have the same idea in mind about CAMPING. There is no need to turn the TAC into another out of control club so lets "GO CAMPING" share our experiences and welcome all that want the same kind of "FUN" for themselves and there families.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:26 PM   #137
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"I STRONGLY believe in KISS and thus KISS it is" !!
Thank you Frank and Rob!
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:14 PM   #138
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I think Frank & Rob & Crew have done a fabulous job setting up TAC. I also believe it is childish to think that some minor form of structure & protection isn't necessary.

I also think Dave is doing a fabulous job, producing a great initial newsletter even during the tragic loss of his Airstream. Keep it up Dave. You have way more support than some of the posts here might indicate.

TAC Rocks!!!
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:54 PM   #139
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Thanks whitsend and everyone else. I can't describe the last two weeks in just words... My TW loss, flooding, and a broken tooth, antibiotic-resistant infection and resulting three and a half hour root canal... It has been hard to keep an even keel...

I am starting tomorrow on the October magazine. It's going to be amazing, and these threads will feed into it - you'll see, it'll make TAC much stronger and more solid than before...
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Old 09-18-2010, 05:20 AM   #140
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You know, previous to this thread I never gave a seconds thought to "mission statement" in any context. Didn't even know that companies and organizations had them. I thought a "mission statement" was something Catholic Charities or the Salvation Army had. Well now I see these "mission statements" every where. I must have noticed 20 "mission statements" posted publicly in the past week. Yesterday I was picking up materials at Stag Parkway(they supply your local RV shop, even the big one down the road with it's own catalog gets their stuff from Stag Parkway) and right there in the area you sign the picking ticket and invoice is their "mission statement ". The thing is framed rather nicely too I might add. So I read it. It says how they are gonna give the best service and products they can no matter how difficult it is. Those are not the words, but the jest of the "mission statement". This morning I go to research Precision Temp products and BAMM right there on page one of the RV/ Marine division is a "mission statement"

PrecisionTemp™ designs and manufactures high-efficiency gas powered hot water
and hydronic space heating systems that exceed performance expectations and environmental standards.

Our commitment to our customers is exceptional service and quality workmanship through dedication and innovation.


So now I am thinking maybe a "mission statement" is needed for my own company. I might even need one for me as an individual in society. The mere discussion of a "mission statement" got some very upset, even upset enough to quit a club with no dues and only two simple rules; make it what you want and make it fun for you.

I am still astounded that people are upset over wanting to organize even a little bit. I hope those free form members host a rally, for quickly they will find just how much organization it really takes. The Forums rallies are used as an example, a great deal, as not being part of an organized club, but I bet SoldierMedic will admit having 4 Forums rallies in Branson every year takes a bit of organization. In two weekends I am going to the Fall Colors Forum Rally. I know for sure Carl has had to do a good deal of work and organization for that one. I would imagine the biggest detractor on this thread about the TAC, has never actually hosted a rally himself. If he has, he has forgotten how much organization went into it. That is easy to do when you are having so much fun. I know I can barely remember the hours and hours of planning that went into pulling off the first Birthday Bash(the one to honor the founder of Airstream's 114th birthday and not to just use his image for our own gain as also implied) The Bash might have seemed spontaneous and free, but in reality it was very well planned out.

I am sure what I have said above will spark some of you. Discussion is a good thing. Rob and I both desire transparency and openness as normal operating procedure for the TAC. It was kind of part of our "mission statement" in starting this. Unlike other clubs the members input is VERY important. Before Mr Byam had a club named for him, he was the leader of a number of caravans. These were not motor tours around the sights like are offered today, these were epic adventures where few roads existed and travel trailers rarely went. He operated the caravan as a democracy. In an interview he was asked how the caravan was structured. The response was inspirational... "well, we take a vote. The minority always follows the majority votes. That's just how we do it"
I hope we as a club will continue to discuss issues. I hope we can also find out what the majority and minority want. That is why Dave started this thread, to find out what the members want.
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