Newer is Not Necessarily an Upgrade

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Exactly why I like my new one....no transmission...only a huge brushless PM motor that spins so high a speed that the dryer cycle time almost matches the wash cycle time. Saves energy both ways.

I was always replacing/rebuilding transmissions and cleaning/replacing relays switches and timers on the old stuff. Mine are almost 8 years old and the only thing I have done is put a tub suspension spring back on when it popped off.
They are top-loaders from Australia (unfortunately). A big improvement over conventional top loaders of the prior generations.

Interestingly enough my MIL has a top o'line Maytag that is on it's third CCM in 5 years. I will stick with the mechanical stuff.

Aaron

[J. Morgan]

My first set of washer and dryer lasted 20 years before I had to replace the bushings in the dryer drum. I used it for a while longer before trading out for my new and improved front loaders.

Right from the get go I stated that some new things are better, but some things that are new and improved are not, no natter how much we want them to be....

Lol how about the new fly by wire electronic throttles they are putting on new cars.

Are these actually new and improved or just new?

Has anyone had to fix one of these yet? $$$$


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[switz]

The concept of fly by wire versus control cables in airliners is interesting given the engine failure on that Airbus 380 in Malaysia. They have dual wiring but both cables sets were in the same wire trough. When the compressor wheel came apart, both cables were cut. When it was finally on the ground (took over THREE Hours to get everyone off the plane) they could not shut down one of the engines and finally choked it with fire fighting equipment.

So, if the computer decides to quit and takes the other two mid ocean, how does the crew fly the plane with no control cables? maybe power adjustments for up and down and less power on one motor to cause a turn..... That only works if they have been trained to consider such a possibility. The crash at San Francisco b Asiania was caused by incompetent crew (including the check pilot) who lack real world hand flying experience. Their log books are full of computer flown hours and training over there is not as rigorous as here.

Mean while back at the bucking rivets station at Airstream, they are still doing that process by hand the same way as in the 30s, but using less of the rivets now. I wonder how much a rivet costs relative to the over $121,00 price tag of the new Classic 31'.

[dznf0g]

Coming back on topic, Let me give my view on new ASes vs. old ASes relative to the number one issue causing the most heartburn here. Water leaks and the resultant damage from them. Granted there are several design and build issues we can discuss, but I need to hone in on my theory.

Basic premise question. I wonder, when new, if a....say 1960...pick a model, had any fewer shell and leak issues than new ones. We are quick to condemn the water test and sealer application and on and on.

I believe there is a substantial amount of "settling in" of the shell over the first 10,000 miles or so, where a lot of joints, rivets, panels, and mounted items shift and move around to find their "stress relieved" positions.

The shell is assembled in sides, roof and end caps individually, by hand, and then assembled as a complete shell. Each component is made on jig without the use cadcam or robots, which can actually compensate for assembles stresses and pre-stress a sub-assembly with predicted and accurate results....like an auto unibody.

Now we have all these "no 2 alike" components riveted together with sealed seams and without even the benefit of a frame or floor to provide "squareness". Now you plop in windows, vents, A/C, door, etc. and run an empty unit through a water test after rolling a few hundred feet on relatively smooth surfaces. They fix any leaks and then install the inner skin putting new stresses on all the assembly points. Now we hang cabinets, screw down walls and counters to the walls and add new additional stresses.

Now we have a brand new AS with countless directional stresses acting upon already induced sub-assembly stresses, held tight by rivets and bolts and screws. Now we buy it and drive it through the oscillations, vibrations, impacts and even g-forces that driving imparts.

I believe that through these first (for me) 10,000 miles everything is wearing in and shifting and settling in.

This has been evidenced to me several ways. Somewhere around 7,000 miles, the door didn't fit. One proper adjustment and it has been fine since. A few (like 5) random rivet pops...one time each in apparently non stressed areas (unlike front panel with over hitched scenario). When new, the wardrobe door would just barely clear the lower A/C shroud. After a few thousand miles it wouldn't clear by 1/8" or so, indicating a settling of that area of the roof under the weight of the A/C.

Is it any wonder that leaks appear after some use. I now have 15K (hub odometer) on the unit and have everything pretty darned sealed and dry. Of course, there will be degradation maintenance over time, but I think she's settled in.

What could AS do to remedy this?
1) Install 100s of millions of dollars of cadcam machinery to precisely drill all holes and hold and form all sub-assemblies and robot applied uniform sealer, and on and on, like an auto manufacturer? All this for 50 units a week in a good year? Automakers have the advantage of defraying these costs over a 7 to 10 year product lifecycle at 50 - 60 unit an HOUR!!!!! Not feasible.

2) Make the shell out of one piece composite material with no seams. I DON'T WANT a plastic Airstream. Maybe it's a good idea, but it's not an Airstream without panels, aluminum, and rivets. Call it something else. Heck, it might even sell.

I wonder if, in 20 years, I'll still be here (ya'll probably hope not) with my 2007 VINTAGE Classic singing the praises of the good old days when they built them right, when in fact, she's just all settled in and comfortable in her own skin.

[John&Vicki]

I guess I'm not paying attention. I've noticed that new Airstreams use fewer visible rivets and I'm sure there's been a discussion on the forum about it, but what are they using to attach the panels in place of rivets?

I gotta admit I like the look of the old ones with more rivets. There's something cool about rivets.

Poppy

[switz]

I think there may be a pretty good number of the older trailers ( a few in the 40s and more in each decade coming to present) still in existence and operational.

Maybe the fewer rivets is the planned obsolesce so the new units won't still be in use 50 years from now as they will fall apart...... Thus increasing sales????

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Birdmaestro

I guess I'm not paying attention. I've noticed that new Airstreams use fewer visible rivets and I'm sure there's been a discussion on the forum about it, but what are they using to attach the panels in place of rivets?

I gotta admit I like the look of the old ones with more rivets. There's something cool about rivets.

Poppy

Whatever floats your boat. If you get a newer one, add rivets.....I mean water entry points.

[John&Vicki]

Well first of all I hope we're all here fussing over our Airstreams and yakking about them 20 years from now.

Rich says that after 15K miles things are looking good from a sealed and dry point of view with his trailer. Which leads to a thought I have had about old vs. new trailers, which might be especially true given his point about Airstreams being largely hand built.

Perhaps one of the reasons that we perceive older trailers as being solid is that they have been sorted over years of use. I know that when I acquire a Porsche, even one in top condition, there is a period of sorting to get things just right. I think those of us who acquire trailers from POs like Rich who have maintained them to a high level benefit from a lengthy sorting process.

As I continue to dig into my trailer I see many signs of previous owners doing things right. These trailers are well built and tend to last and over time I think it's possible to improve things faster than they deteriorate when you work at it. Older trailers with those kinds of POs are jewels.

Poppy

[J. Morgan]

The numerous rivets being close set like they are on the old Airstreams IS going to add strength to the individual joints and the overall structure of the trailer.




Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[John&Vicki]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Whatever floats your boat. If you get a newer one, add rivets.....I mean water entry points.

As you might have surmised by now, no plans to buy a newer one.

I wasn't being disingenuous with my question about attaching panels. Do they simply use fewer rivets or do they use supplementary methods as well?

Poppy

[dznf0g]

When I was at the plant a couple years ago, they were using a double sided tape of some sort between the outer skin and ribs. I never got a definitive answer whether this was a structural adhesive tape or a thermal break or both. If I ever suspected an under reinforced area, I'd add rivets. But to date, I have no reason to do so.

[RVDreamer]

Each rivet is a chance for filiform corrosion and potential for a water leak.
Most likely Airstream has recognized this design problem and is working on a combination of adhesive and fewer rivets.

I know people have been complaining about the so called fancy gadgets added to new Airstreams but the truth is, Airstream is probably more stubborn than any RV manufacturer at not making changes for change sake.

Almost every new RV by Newmar, Winnebago, Prevost, etc. are loaded with ten times the gadgetry of an Airstream. Most have gone all electric with networked control so that everything is tied to your tablet. Awnings, toilets, cooktops, ovens, leveling systems, on demand water heaters, etc are all power and use latest tech for control.

By most standards the Airstream brand is a dinosaur. So it seems to me that all RV owners are pushing for updates not just new Airstream owners.

I also don't believe you can stereotype a group of people based on age. Everyone is different and everyone has had different experiences in their life. To say that all young people are to blame for quality issues and timesaving gadgets because they lack common sense is as false as saying that all people over age 65 are a whining worthless bunch who only put a drain on the economy, with their union pensions and healthcare costs driving the US into bankruptcy.

[Arcticfox]

Originally Posted by RVDreamer

Each rivet is a chance for filiform corrosion and potential for a water leak.
Most likely Airstream has recognized this design problem and is working on a combination of adhesive and fewer rivets.

I know people have been complaining about the so called fancy gadgets added to new Airstreams but the truth is, Airstream is probably more stubborn than any RV manufacturer at not making changes for change sake.

Almost every new RV by Newmar, Winnebago, Prevost, etc. are loaded with ten times the gadgetry of an Airstream. Most have gone all electric with networked control so that everything is tied to your tablet. Awnings, toilets, cooktops, ovens, leveling systems, on demand water heaters, etc are all power and use latest tech for control.

By most standards the Airstream brand is a dinosaur. So it seems to me that all RV owners are pushing for updates not just new Airstream owners.

I also don't believe you can stereotype a group of people based on age. Everyone is different and everyone has had different experiences in their life. To say that all young people are to blame for quality issues and timesaving gadgets because they lack common sense is as false as saying that all people over age 65 are a whining worthless bunch who only put a drain on the economy, with their union pensions and healthcare costs driving the US into bankruptcy.

After reading a ton of outlandish comments on this tread, finally one that makes some sense! - Thanks you

[r carl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Well, ya know, that dual hole is for the young kids who want to shotgun a beer without any effort at all with carrying a pointy can opener and punching their own hole in the bottom of the can. What kind of lazy generation have we produced anyway!

This one.

[J. Morgan]

Why would anyone want to control their toilet via tablet?

Begging the pardon of those who disagree, so much of the automated stuff in a thirty foot footprint is ridiculous.

This stuff is going to be a headache to keep functional no matter what.

I built my trailer very simple on purpose, arguably more simple even than it was new in 72.

We are gadget addicted in this nation. Tending after after needless bells and whistles steals joy.

Frankly I think the new AS trailers are damn cool. I like their looks and appointments, I don't like things like electric toilets and computer thermostats that need rebooting etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[r carl]

Some people just like gadgets.

[J. Morgan]

And I respect that,,,, but we should all as ourselves why.

Saying this I rejected the notion of getting a smart phone for a long time. Now I have one and I use it too much.... Like right now....

I guess one of my points is that I read many of the posts on here about the failure of the fancy electronics on top of devices that didn't used to be computerized,,, but seemed by most accounts to have been more reliable.

I am going to say, the first time I couldn't flush my dookie down an electric toilet I would be seriously reconsidering the need for such a device.

Who remembers twenty years ago needing to read an operators manual to set a thermostat? Who remembers twenty years ago having to reboot their thermostat to re-establish communications with the air conditioner?

Who remembers when a refrigerator would run for twenty years never needing to be repaired?

Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[cramar]

On the subject of rivets...in what year did AS start to reduce rivets?

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Who remembers when a refrigerator would run for twenty years never needing to be repaired?

When we sold our previous house in Sept. 2012, we left our large freezer for the new owners. It took four guys to bring it down the basement stairs in 1976. It probably weighed 300 lbs and had insulated walls about 4" thick. We bought it used in 1976, and I suspect it was at least 10 years old (possibly much older) at the time. It was still running fine in 2012 (at least 46 years) and probably still is. Trouble is, it was a noisy energy hog compared to the flimsy stuff today. Our current freezer is about 2/3 the size, uses a fraction of the electricity, is almost dead quiet, and probably weights all of 70 lbs. Better technology, but cheaply built! I wonder how long it will last?

[RVDreamer]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Who remembers twenty years ago needing to read an operators manual to set a thermostat? Who remembers twenty years ago having to reboot their thermostat to re-establish communications with the air conditioner?

Who remembers when a refrigerator would run for twenty years never needing to be repaired?

Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

Problem is, it is hard to find standard (non-computerized) gear. Because the demand has driven most manufacturers to re-tool, and re-design so that all they supply to the RV industry are computerized devices.

Have you ever tried to find a new land-line phone that doesn't plug-in with a wall wart, has a rotary dial, and no micro-chips? Record players, 8-track tapes, incandescent light bulbs, freon based a/c, etc. all are going or gone.

I guess I am not as frustrated with computerized gadgets. I haven't found them to be too complicated or unreliable. But I usually don't buy the cheap ones with poor interfaces either.

I do agree that some things really aren't improved with computer interfaces and specialized sensors. Most of it is for luxury and not necessity.

Part of the demand for these convenience items is that more and more customers are not just looking for a camper for weekend excursions but instead are going full time and want all the luxuries of a modern home.

[J. Morgan]

http://www.airforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121595

http://www.airforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121494

These are pretty current threads.

I agree that a lot of the reason that things get complicated is because that is what the customer wants. I guess my point of posting on this thread is to incite thinking as to WHY customers want such things.

I am not being adversarial, I am just presenting a point of view that is becoming more rare.

Considering the title of this thread I think it is OK to express my frustration with complexity that I consider to be for no good reason. (The problem is not exclusive to Airstreams, it is widespread).

I would like for someone to tell me why a computer thermostat that talks to an air conditioner is better than a thermostat that simply tells the air conditioner what to do. Same with an electric toilet.

Are these two new devices REALLY improvements? If so how so?


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums