Newer is Not Necessarily an Upgrade

[rodsterinfl]

I posted the ducted air question on another forum and one of the RV mechanics shared his two cents that ducted air is not quieter, that its purpose started as a work-around for slide-outs and basement air (hmm) Could be. As far as the new AS goes, we will find out. If the fan can run at lower speeds and not freeze the AC unit up then it will be able to run quieter.

My little 11K unit blows cold air, I have just learned that I must run that fan on high to keep it from freezing up. So, I have a louder operation noise. The new units may also require this and if so, may not really be any quieter as my simple SOB comparison found.

[mutcth]

Originally Posted by zigzagguzzi

I find the only thing not upgraded are the new AS owners. Many lack the common sense and life experiences of new owners of a different era. AS is catering to these new owners and hence the decline in quality and common sense in the building of the units. All the shiny and electronic junk on the new units grab these new owners and get them to buy. The trailers have declined in quality as have the new owners. I know, I am just a fossil, but I believe this is true. Many of you will agree, but few will admit it. Not meant to insult any individuals, just the younger generations in general. No fault of their own, we raised them to be the way they are! Jim

Wow. Mind you, it's easy to take something like that personally (being 43 and owning a newer trailer.) It just sounds like sour grapes and maybe even jealousy. (Let's face it: buying a new AS requires a pretty big chunk of $$.)

But even if I avoid taking that bait, I still think you're painting with a big-time wide brush:

- The problems with newer trailers aren't that they have Bluetooth-compatible stereos or two TVs. That stuff is fairly cheap to install too.

- My belief is that use patterns have changed. I owned a 77 Argosy Minuet. It didn't have perfect fit-and-finish. Not even close. But it was a rather "engineered" trailer with very little wasted space. It seemed optimized for boondocking.

But the days of Wally's caravan-inspired trailers are done. My guess is that many newer owners will now go to hookup sites. They can deal with parasitic power draws. Towing with a big truck (now more common) lets you get around some storage issues and allows you to haul heavy cabinetry.

Maybe that lets AS design be sloppy, or avoid innovating with lighter materials or optimizing space. Not sure this is the fault of a new group of buyers though.

- No question that AS uses fewer rivets and a lesser grade of aluminium. But other than a few examples of structural deficiencies (34' with front separation, 22' frame outriggers), it's hard to say the trailers are going to fall apart as a result. (Yes, I could do without filaform - a cosmetic problem.)

- With few exceptions, it's hard to get a trailer that is designed to tow as well as an aerodynamic torsion-axled Airstream. That hasn't really changed.

Do I think AS is the pinnacle of RV quality? It's up there, but there are better. My T@B was rather well-built. A Safari Condo is probably better, at least material-wise. Same goes for some fiberglass trailers.

Funny. These types of threads usually come up in the winter when people are pent up and cranky from not being able to go camping.

Tom

[John&Vicki]

Like many threads here we're wandering a bit around my original post but it's become an interesting discussion about the level of quality of Airstreams over their long history. I don't think there's any question that things have varied over the years. Manufacturers don't operate in a vacuum. They're affected greatly by macro and micro economic conditions, ownership changes, changing consumer tastes, employee attitudes and morale, and many other factors.

Porsche, a manufacturer that I'm very familar with, has seen the quality of its product fluctuate greatly over roughly the same period as Airstream. Everyone pretty much agrees on what periods were up and what periods were down. After the fact. It seems like it's necessary for some time to elapse before a production period builds its reputation.

I haven't experienced a new Airstream, in fact my '90 is the only one I've owned and traveled in. I'm gaining the impression, mainly from this forum, that the vicissitudes of production quality with Airstreams are very similar to those experienced by other manufacturers. A lot of similarities with Porsche as they're both iconic brands that are considered cool.

In any event, I'm no longer a collector of Porsches and I'll never be a collector of Airstreams. My trailer is really just a tool, a means to an end. And that end is being able to travel around the U.S. with my vacation home trundling along behind me. So far my '90 does that well and I'm content with it. It's an extra bonus that it gives me membership into a fine community of fellow Airstream owners.

Poppy

[PharmGeek]

quick side point, I think in theory the ducted air upgrade could prove really cool...but I could totally understand the skepticism (I harbor it myself on that subject)...

One point that my dealer told me was that (per him) that he thinks you still hear the compressor kick on and off all the same....of course if it is all that quiter for watching movies, talking, etc....this may be just a side note...but if true, instead of purely having wisping quiet AC at night..you do get that lovely compressor noise when it kicks on...which for me I drown it out by running the fan all night...which I grew up running a fan since a kid and cannot sleep without it.

But, I hope personally that such an upgrade lives up to the hype and the new owners have something to boast about...why not

[xrvr]

I have owned two new AS since 2005. Referring back to my earlier post. I just think tat so many new AS owners need everything given to them on a silver platter. I am not talking about sixty year olds here, I am talking about younger ones, the ones AS targets in their ads. How many posts with problems that just reading the info that comes with the trailer would solve, are on here everyday. The new trailers have enough problems, so helping yourself by reading these will help. Be responsible for your actions, fix the things that are common to rvs in general and are minor, and go after AS or the dealer for the major issues., but remember it may be a design problem or one that is common on all trailers and cannot be solved. Too much rambling, sorry... Jim

[John&Vicki]

Hey Jim, you're showing your age. At least you're in Florida and you didn't have to walk barefoot in deep snow to school, two miles and uphill both ways, like I did in Vermont. Actually, I think it's pretty tough for younger folks these days. They were brought up during a time when the middle class was doing well and they're finding it challenging to achieve the American Dream in a shrinking middle class.

I do think that Airstream targets a younger audience with the usual advertising kerfuffle. It's all about selling the dream with bright and shiny wrapping. There are times when if that's done well - and it usually is these days - it creates opportunities to widen profit margins by reducing the cost of production which can impact quality.

Sell the sizzle not the steak doesn't provide incentive to increase the quality of the steak.

Poppy

[cramar]

This is a very interesting thread! I'd love to find out from the OP the details on exactly why they like their 80s over new?

New technology is usually far superior. Who wants an old analog TV over the latest flat screen digital? Quality is another matter. There are plenty of 30-yr old analog TVs that are still functional. I've yet to get 3 yrs out of a flat screen without it dying.

As far as AS goes, I really like the shiny, lighter, narrow-body vintage. But for me, newer has much better layouts and space utilization. Since the cost of a new(er) AS is much more than I want to pay at this time, and old vintage is too much work (I'd rather be using the AS not renovating it), I'm forced to look in the range of 15-25 yrs old. So far I'm not impressed.

The issue of new AS quality is important and sad. Airstream needs to be bought by somebody like Toyota with a different mindset than Thor. If we have to pay Lexus prices then we should have Lexus quality!

As far as Wally's Club is concerned, recently we were invited to a local rally and when we arrived the local president took us around and introduced us to owners who had experience in the areas we were interested in (it was easy to see why she is president). Soon a whole group of people were welcoming us and inviting us to see their trailers. I've never met a nicer group of people in my life! It was a wonderful experience! Maybe things are different here in Canada.

[xrvr]

Actually I grew up in northeast Ohio. Saying the younger generation has it tough is just another way of saying they do not want to work for it. Too many of us taking care of kids in their twenties, kick them out. None of my or my wife's younger generations ever had a problem finding a job. Might not have been what they wanted, but they new they had to work. I agree about the steaks. I have gotten way off topic, did not mean to hijack the thread. Jim

[John&Vicki]

Originally Posted by cramar

This is a very interesting thread! I'd love to find out from the OP the details on exactly why they like their 80s over new?

New technology is usually far superior. Who wants an old analog TV over the latest flat screen digital? Quality is another matter. There are plenty of 30-yr old analog TVs that are still functional. I've yet to get 3 yrs out of a flat screen without it dying.

As far as AS goes, I really like the shiny, lighter, narrow-body vintage. But for me, newer has much better layouts and space utilization. Since the cost of a new(er) AS is much more than I want to pay at this time, and old vintage is too much work (I'd rather be using the AS not renovating it), I'm forced to look in the range of 15-25 yrs old. So far I'm not impressed.

I didn't say I liked my '90 trailer better than a new one. I said I was content with my old trailer and didn't view a new one as an upgrade. Heck I might like a new one better. Who knows? I'm content.

I agree that new technology is usually better than old technology. But I don't see a lot of technology in Airstreams. I've never given much thought to technology and how it relates to quality but my sense is that items that are heavily technology dependent are frequently low in quality as they are made to be disposable as advancing technology calls for their replacement. Quality is most important with low tech, durable, long life items - like travel trailers.

Sounds like you haven't found a great older one. I was fortunate to find one that had been used as a covered guest house for many years in a dry climate and had very few road miles in it. There are good ones out there. I always go back to my long experience with vintage Porsches. You may have to look at 50 to find one great one, but they're out there. Keep looking!

Poppy

[blickcd]

I love my Dometic RM100 fridge.

I also miss my Armstrong AC unit. The medium fan speed was just right most of the time.

[J. Morgan]

Technology has improved things no doubt, but in the same period of time things have decayed,

I offer up an educated projection to support my assertion, in 20 years there will be virtually no 30 year old vehicles on the road.

"Quality" is not defined digitally, (as a one or a zero) and the advancement of a culture in which all things are disposable can not truly be a good thing.


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[r carl]

Originally Posted by switz

I became very knowledgable about the PCBs issue when dealing with our five Superfund sites in Bloomington, Indiana and the resulting disastrous cleanup that left most of the PCBs hiding under the carpet. Corporations are no stewards of the environment if it gets in the way of profits. And that applies to their employees being "expendable" as a cost of doing business.

They were created in Germany in the 1880s and workers were getting sick and dying within five to eight years of exposure. They were exported to the US in the early 1900s with similar results.

Bloomington has one of the highest brain cancer rates in the nation, especially among those that lived adjacent to the dumps containing these chemicals. A farmer next door to one toxic landfill had three headed pigs, strange leg configurations and other issues with his wife's legs.

A Westinghouse employee who usually had his arms in the fluid got sick and went to the doctor for blood work. His wife was taken aside to be told that the extremely high PCB levels in his body meant that when he died, he would either have to be buried in a hazardous waste land fill or cremated in a hazardous incinerator as his body was that toxic.

These issues are not just in the USA, but world wide. There is NO place on the planet that one can not detect PCB contamination.

Monsanto Inc formerly manufactured controversial products such as the insecticide DDT, PCBs, Agent Orange, and recombinant bovine somatotropin (a.k.a. bovine growth hormone).

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

meh, I am age 31...I went to canopener this year and met folks of various ages...and I have a few friends who are interested in AS...they are quite critical thinking and prepared individuals...none just saw a shiny object and took "hook line and sinker"...and as far as I can tell, the disposition, the handiness, the common sense etc is not to me at all obviously superior or inferior based on generation....instead it is based on many other factors.

As a general rule, I have simply found most folks I have met very friendly including all the folks I met at canopener...also I always make a point to converse with other AS owners when we are camping (sometimes to my wife's embarrassment).

I dont mean this to be mean or anything, but I think humans are much more predisposed to cynicism when observing their fellow human beings in action and take a small sample size and run with conclusions of all sorts based on an inadequte data set.

But perhaps I am 31 and naive?

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Technology has improved things no doubt, but in the same period of time things have decayed,

I offer up an educated projection to support my assertion, in 20 years there will be virtually no 30 year old vehicles on the road.

"Quality" is not defined digitally, (as a one or a zero) and the advancement of a culture in which all things are disposable can not truly be a good thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

I disagree. The auto world is reversing the trend of the 80s and 90s. The average age of registered vehicles has increased from 7 years to now over 11 years over the last 5 year period. This indicates vehicles are lasting longer. This trend is expected to continue.the industry sales rate does affect this number, but the trend of people keeping vehicles longer, because it is more economical to do so is very real.

Not all industries are following that trend though.

[polarlyse]

I agree mostly with the new technology = improvement mindset. Recently on another thread a poster wrote about having an electrical issue with his high-tech electronic toilet in his new Airstream. I'm happy with my foot flush, old tech, one and even with an electric failure I can flush it with a pail of water. In fact, in the middle of the night, I'm just glad to have one. Our first AS was our first real RV trailer. We had pop-up'ed it when the kids were little. The think I find most luxurious thing I found was having hot water on demand in the morning.

See ya'll on the road sometime

[J. Morgan]

The insulation on wires on newer cars isn't making it past 15 or 20 years. This alone will deem them to the scrap heap,

[John&Vicki]

I worked as a systems integrator during the client-server era followed by 15 years building internet companies. Many years in the digital world but I find I very often prefer analog - and manual vs. automatic. Roger mentioned electric toilets. I can't for the life of me see anything wrong with flush toilets. I much prefer having a manual awning as opposed to an automatic one. Heck I prefer roll-up windows in a car over electric ones.

Low tech often means there's less to go wrong. And it almost always means you can fix it if it does. The electric, automatic, digital stuff is usually remove and replace with a new component - if you can figure out which component. And it's also usually $$$$.

One of the things I like about my old trailer is how primitive it is. There's not much there that I can't fix given enough time and enough reading here.

Poppy

[J. Morgan]

I recently had the occasion to replace the doors on a chevy truck that had been stolen stripped and recovered.

The old doors had manual windows, the replacements were power windows. I was thinking no problem, I will just drop a new power wire in and everything will be cool.....

NO,,,, the power windows have to be wired through the computer, and then the computer must be programed at the dealer.

This truck no longer has window control running through the computer. All of this trash was replaced wit three double pole double throw momentary rocker switches...

Viola, simplicity restored, just like on my old 55 Lincoln...

Why would power windows be routed through a computer?

Why would Airstream use a thermostat that "talks" to the air conditioner through a cat 5 cable?

What was wrong with a thermostat that simply tells an air conditioner what to do?

Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[xrvr]

So a warning will notify the driver that the window is down in case it rains. You know, not enough sense to get out of the rain. Senders that turn on headlights and wipers. All common sense things that today's people have to be told to do. We raised em, and we are paying for it now. Jim

[TG Twinkie]

It's because people are too lazy to go outside and light the water heater.
The basic systems require someone to interact with the device. All most people want to do today is to sit in their air conditioned coach; watch TV or be on the net. Anything more than pushing a button is difficult.
Unfortunately, this is the reason for things like electric toilets. Circuit board controlled refers, furnaces etc.
I am one who is lucky enough to have a broad technical background and can repair or replace virtually everything in my coach. I am also smart enough not to take on any body work. No skill or patients in this area.
So as long as the 40 year old refer in my coach does not lose the ammonia charge. I can troubleshoot and repair it. And not have big $$$ going out for circuit boards etc. No electronics in that old refer.
If and when the old Armstrong AC craps out. If I decide to upgrade. I will look closely at installing one of the mini split AC units out there. Should I decide not to repair or refurbish the Armstrong unit. Why replace an old noisy AC with a new noisy AC?
There is a certain amount of comfort in knowing that. If something does go wrong. Chances are, that if I can get parts. I can do the repair myself.
I am intimately familiar with all systems in my coach. Since I have completed all upgrades and improvements myself.
I think that is why I am so critical of A$. It's not exactly Rocket Science to build reliable systems and to at least do above average quality of work. Since the price of an A$ is above average.
I think one reason the auto quality has improved ( generally speaking) besides the competition is that robots do a lot of the work. Robots don't know whether it is Monday or Friday. They don't get the Monday Morning blues or mad at their boss or upper management. Etc. they just do the same job in the same way every minute of every day. They don't have spouses or family issues or get tired of going to work. So the results of the work is pretty consistent.
IMHO

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by Birdmaestro

I worked as a systems integrator during the client-server era followed by 15 years building internet companies. Many years in the digital world but I find I very often prefer analog - and manual vs. automatic. Roger mentioned electric toilets. I can't for the life of me see anything wrong with flush toilets. I much prefer having a manual awning as opposed to an automatic one. Heck I prefer roll-up windows in a car over electric ones.

Low tech often means there's less to go wrong. And it almost always means you can fix it if it does. The electric, automatic, digital stuff is usually remove and replace with a new component - if you can figure out which component. And it's also usually $$$$.

One of the things I like about my old trailer is how primitive it is. There's not much there that I can't fix given enough time and enough reading here.

Poppy

Bingo! We have a winner!

The more things get automated the more complex they become. Making them more difficult to fix and quite often more likely to fail. Many, many years ago I started training as a cabinet maker, the gentleman that was teaching us made us learn the old manual methods FIRST then allowed us to move on to the fancier power machines. I still teach my guys the same way today, learn the basic manual methods then move on to the machines.

Aaron