Newer is Not Necessarily an Upgrade

[Larry C]

Originally Posted by terrencecolp

There's just no way with today's labor costs you could build the same as you could 20 years ago.

I think if you consider the wage/product price ratio of 20 years ago, to today's, there should be no reason the product couldn't be built at least as well, or better than 20 years ago.
Technology has improved, materials (for the most part) have improved, the only thing that hasn't improved is the attitude of people. Instead of having a good work ethic, many have developed a "me first, to hell with you" attitude.
That's a pretty sad attitude, but today, it goes from the very top to the very bottom levels of companies, government (especially government)....
For whatever it's worth.

Larry

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by Larry C

That's a pretty sad attitude, but today, it goes from the very top to the very bottom levels of companies, government (especially government)....

Oi! Some Airstream owners are Government employees as well, you know! Can we say that the attitude goes from very top to very bottom, but skips the very middle?

[xrvr]

Something I always told my bosses no matter where I worked. People work down to the level of expectation of their superiors. Jim

[cramar]

Great information. I'm becoming more and more convinced that ultimately I would not be happy with a new AS as they exist. My wife and I like the Eddie Bauer editions. Great concept, meh execution. The movable lounge furniture seems cheap, and I would change it anyway to chairs, plus queen to two singles. Probably laminate flooring. I'm becoming convinced the only way I will be satisfied is with a custom design that I create for our needs. But the major problem with vintage are the layouts. My wife who knows next to nothing about AS said she cannot believe that for decades they made them with other than rear dining/lounges. "Who wants to look at your hitch and tow vehicle?", she said. Here newer FB is far superior for us!

When it comes to improvement due to technology, my education and career was in technology (electronics and computers). I'm retired, but last years spent as a technical writer explaining how to use software. Usability and UI (User Interface) were my passion. I learned to love these two quotes.

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
- Albert Eistein

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Our current van has power doors. I'm paranoid that the motor or cables will break. They sometimes beep and reopen when half shut. They think there is something blocking the door. And they are slow. Our previous van had manual doors. Simple and I could shut them 4x as fast as the power ones. The above two quotes apply!

Maybe AS should make some simple vanilla versions. If major sales come from Classics, then so be it. For me, I don't what to lug around solid wood cabinetry. I want lightweight composite in white. The only wood I want to see is on the floor! LED lighting everywhere, sophisticated charge controller for the solar panels, but simple toilets, showers, fans, a/c, thermostat, stove, oven, frig. State-of-the-art flatscreen and music systems, but hand cranked awnings, jacks, vents, windows. Best of both worlds.

In software, we called it "bloatware" when features were added for the sake of adding them. New Airstreams should be called "Bloatstreams!" Take a 1,000 lbs. out of a new one, then work on the next thousand!

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.

[John&Vicki]

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." What a great quote - and what a great post.

There appears to be a consumer wave forming of major proportions: simpler and smaller. Perhaps it's in reaction to "bloatware" and "bloatstuff" in general. Perhaps it's the beginning of an adaptation to a leaner economic environment. Perhaps it's in reaction to big footprints and high rates of consumption. I'm not an economist or a sociologist and don't have insights into the causes, but the wave is plain to see. A couple of examples that come to mind:

o Tiny houses
This is becoming a full fledged movement. Folks are discovering what most of us here already know - you can live comfortably in a very small space. take a look at Tiny House Design

o Self sufficient frugal living on a small budget
Folks like Mr. Money Mustache - Mr. Money Mustache — Early Retirement through Badassity - are retiring early and living well with modest means.

I grew up with Vermont roots - folks believed in and practiced Yankee Ingenuity. Things weren't thrown away, they were fixed. A lot of the old stuff was well made and newer wasn't necessarily an upgrade. I think that's why the remark made by the newer AS owner seemed so off-key to me. His remark was well intended and didn't mean any harm by it. It's just part of his worldview that newer is an upgrade.

And it might be - but it ain't necessarily so.

Poppy

[r carl]

I guess some just think if it makes your wallet lighter its an upgrade.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by cramar

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
- Albert Eistein

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
- Leonardo da Vinci

In other words, as all good engineers know and all bad engineers don't, "Form follows function."

[rodsterinfl]

Either yous guys look really young or, they were putting you on for a big tip!

I grew up with Vermont roots - folks believed in and practiced Yankee Ingenuity. Things weren't thrown away, they were fixed. A lot of the old stuff was well made and newer wasn't necessarily an upgrade. I think that's why the remark made by the newer AS owner seemed so off-key to me. His remark was well intended and didn't mean any harm by it. It's just part of his worldview that newer is an upgrade.How do you suppose she would adapt to rebooting her thermostat or figuring out how to make a non flushing electric toilet flush?

Case in point- Singer sewing machines. They used to be the one to get. Then when they started making the machine gears of plastic they lost their foothold on the market- in came Pfaff, Huskavarna, etc. The issue was that customers started having multiple breakdowns- the thing was wearing out early.

How do you suppose she would adapt to rebooting her thermostat or figuring out how to make a non flushing electric toilet flush?

LOL Yeah and what about having to reboot/reset the toilet and the switch is the store/use button in the Airstream- the one by the door!

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by rodsterinfl

Case in point- Singer sewing machines. They used to be the one to get. Then when they started making the machine gears of plastic they lost their foothold on the market- in came Pfaff, Huskavarna, etc. The issue was that customers started having multiple breakdowns- the thing was wearing out early.



LOL Yeah and what about having to reboot/reset the toilet and the switch is the store/use button in the Airstream- the one by the door!

I have 3 Singer sewing machines... the newest is a 500a from around 1965. One of the last ones made with all steel gears. I can still buy parts for it.

I live on a small farm, we don't throw anything out if we can repair it. Problem is with much of the newer stuff you can't even get parts to repair it, it was designed to be disposable.

Aaron

[boondockdad]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

In other words, as all good engineers know and all bad engineers don't, "Form follows function."

actually, that quote is attributed to an architect.

[r carl]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

I have 3 Singer sewing machines... the newest is a 500a from around 1965. One of the last ones made with all steel gears. I can still buy parts for it.

I live on a small farm, we don't throw anything out if we can repair it. Problem is with much of the newer stuff you can't even get parts to repair it, it was designed to be disposable.

Aaron

I have collected a several Singer 301, 301A, and one 221 feather weight machines.

[boondockdad]

this is what's great about airforums.. you can end up in another continent from the OP
....

I guess I'd be curious to know, how many 'vintage' owners are running their rig pure stock.
bias-ply tires, no microwave, no grey, porcelain toilet, to name a few... and don't forget the tow vehicle- talk about "upgrades"

AFA the durability issue. Excluding the obvious run of Beatrice-streams that suffer frame failure, I'd put my S/O up against any vintage unit out there. I wholly expect it to be 'on the road' in another 30 years. Whether it's a FLW 'Kaufmann house' situation, is another story...

[J. Morgan]

My brother in law is living in my 75 which is pure stock except for a replacement hot water heater and a replacement A/C, and replaced water lines.

It was allowed to freeze, killed the water lines and the hot water heater.

My 72 is different. Nothing stock except the air conditioner, but with the exception of an added grey tank I consider mine more simple and less complicated than stock.


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[John&Vicki]

Interesting opinion piece in todays NY Times about modern construction written by a professor of engineering at Duke University:

"They Don't Make 'Em Like They Used To" - http://nyti.ms/TCRnMO
Why has the quality of our houses and bridges declined so much?

Poppy

[boondockdad]

funny, author doesn't mention Calatrava bridges..

[r carl]

Capitalism works well when labor is expendable and that happens when craftsmanship goes down.

[PharmGeek]

So this thread is "newer is not necessarily an upgrade"....but it seems it also has evolved to "newer is more likely a downgrade"...is that accurate?

I just do not have the knowledge base to judge the quality of materials, building process etc for AS over so many years...

We started our process wanting to get an 80's excella and fix it up how we wanted it...but then with further discussion on this forum many said two full time young parents and some units may prove to be a bigger time committment for repairs and improvements so started to lean new...then discovered bunkhouse layout....then fell in love with our bunkhouse and bought it....

So far we are very pleased with it...found our first leak unfortunately (used a moisture meter) - beleieve we have found the source...am taking it back to dealer soon and they will dry that area out, fix any leak(s) (I hope!) and I will continue to monitor it like a hawk...otherwise its all sealed up nice and dry by my survey and luckily no filiform corrosion...

It does have a number really cheezy issues with it...but nothing that really bother me...the drawer latches are not designed to hold those drawers in place in travel and there are no other way to secure those drawers...result was some minor damage to the things that hold the guides which will be fixed...the miniblinds as of our last trip are starting to show that they will not last with our kids (and honestly with us too as you hit them moving around or opening cabinets, etc).

But we are having a blast...

I grew up having nothing living on welfare so I am quite sure any airstream traveling around enjoying the outdoors we would be having a blast...

Except for this leak that will need to be repaired, it has been trouble free....if in a few years that was my only major problem, then I will be overall extremely happy...if the story becomes leak after leak after leak...well, ill be whistling a different tune wont I

[John&Vicki]

"So this thread is "newer is not necessarily an upgrade"....but it seems it also has evolved to "newer is more likely a downgrade"...is that accurate?"

It has devolved into that at times despite my continual efforts as the OP to remind people of the title of this thread: Newer is Not Necessarily an Upgrade.

Poppy

[J. Morgan]

The problem with upgrades is that revisions are compromised by other issues, among them are ;

1. If a manufacturer makes a product that doesn't break much , the manufacturer will lose money on the parts and replacement end.

2. Engineers eager to see their work in production might fail to make their overly complex solution user friendly and reliable.

3. A manufacturer eager to get a new bell or whistle into the marketplace might compromise a well engineered design for the sake of economy.

4. Parts supplied do not meet their promise or expectation.

5. The wheel in re-engineered for the sake of progress alone. Sometimes the simple solution is the best solution.

6. When sitting on the lot all of the bells and whistles look appealing, they are sought after, then reality sets in once the camping begins....

The reason progress isn't always progress is because poor choices poison the well.


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[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by r carl

I have collected a several Singer 301, 301A, and one 221 feather weight machines.

We have a 404 and a 221 and the 500a. My mother in law has several more including some old treadle powered ones.

Aaron