Carry a Weapon

[gsmithii]

Originally Posted by VT Wanderer

Any thoughts out there about carrying a weapon in your AS?

This thread has a lot of opinions about why folks choose as they do - good on 'em. The first post asked for thoughts and got them in abundance. How "bout something generally useful? This will be a try at it.

My intention is to cover both the pro and con side of this question, many of which have been covered very well in other threads in this forum. You will not see anything about "what I do," or "what I recommend" as that is my personal business and other folks should likewise decide for themselves. Unlike a gun magazine this forum has folks of many outlooks - there is no preaching to the converted. That should be seen as constructive, but the first post asked for comment. Perhaps in hindsight that was a mistake.

First of all, here in Virginia most recent published information that I could find (2009) shows that approximately two per cent of our fellow Virginians have applied for a Virginia concealed firearm license. Unlike Florida this is a permit for a concealed firearm only. Open carry is legal here. Some other non-firearm weapons are not legal to be carried concealed. A collapsing baton comes to mind.

As a result every person considering violence against another person in Virginia has to ask whether anybody they encounter here is armed. Whether one chooses to carry a firearm or not that's an interesting result for the unarmed folks. Businesses may also post a sign at the entrance declaring that "no firearms are allowed". Go there or not, but it is the owner's perogative - and yours to enter or not. For what it's worth these signs are most common in northern Virginia.

As for carrying any weapon - in an Airstream or not - the first consideration had better be whether the bearer can choose to use it, as commented multiple times previously, and use it competently. If a Virginian wishes to be one of the ninety-eight per cent who choose not to become licensed they still benefit from the other two per cent. Folks who cannot honestly bear to harm another person are in the ninety-eight per cent. They are generally nice folks who should be cherished. Maybe those folks just can't abide killing another soul but we may want to share a meal or a conversation with them. The other two per cent. Well, they are the reason the ninety-eight per cent benefit from the uncertainty.

Carrying a deadly weapon because one is "uncomfortable" is just backwards. The first two things to depart under severe stress are field of view and small muscle coordination. Call it tunnel vision and frozen in one's tracks. Hearing and sense of time are also distorted. Without training and forethought the armed and uncomfortable citizen may not be effective in his own defense and may be a hazard to his fellow citizens. With training and forethought it is still darned difficult to employ a pistol effectively.

There are many many anecdotes but the example that comes to mind is the police officer who came under fire from a building. He returned fire with a handgun carrying sixteen rounds, reloaded once and missed with every shot. Unless you've been shot at don't giggle. It happens.

Darned difficult? It takes a competent shooter approximately two seconds or less to draw and fire from most useful concealment, a holster under a jacket, for example. Deep concealment is a different story, but in those two seconds a threat can close from approximately twelve to fifteen feet to the range of a blow with a fist or hand held weapon.

As a firearms instructor once counseled, remember that every round down range is a potential law suit. Are you OK with that? That observation speaks to all the points mentioned previously about competence, training, planning and the responsibility of deadly force.

As has been noted in other threads our Airsteams don't stop bullets, either incoming or outgoing. Do you know where that round will go? Do you r-e-a-l-l-y know? That might be a good idea.

How 'bout storage and security for the weapon? Are you controlling the weapon every minute? Guests in the trailer? Children? Where is it stored? Is the storage secure? Is it accessible in emergency? Is the storage capable of resisting a break-in or a crash (if you are traveling in Illinois?). Does it meet Federal weapons transport requirements? Are you in a truck or an RV? Do you know the law for those vehicles?

This is a good point to stop. For the original question for comments about firearms in Airstreams, follow your own guidance. There are too many considerations to take casual advice.

[dznf0g]

Good writeup, Skip. I appreciate it. The real issue IMO, resides in your 2nd to last paragraph. That should NOT be the question when we have a FEDERAL constitution with a 2nd amendment....but, alas, you are correct.

[Friday]

Originally Posted by doug&maggie

Aaah, Illinois. What to say, what to say. Umm, I"ve said it.

It is very difficult for your average, law-abiding citizen to be anything but polite, respectful and compliant with a uniformed officer who carries a loaded gun and has arrest powers. That's just reality.

If you have nothing to hide, being honest and cooperative seems to be the best course of action. Yes?

Maggie

That is entirely a personal choice... and not a matter of law. You don't have to be polite, or respectful... because the officer has a gun. He's not going to shoot you for being an asshole, and can't arrest you without cause. I'd expect you would chose to be polite because you realize he/she is doing their job, and their day just goes a lot better when people are nice.

If you are grumpy, and the cop is already well on the way to having a crappy day - then you are definitely running the risk of the officer using their discretion to zing you for every little thing they can find.

I prefer to deal with polite people, but you can be as grumpy as you want. It's all recorded and when you come to court 6 months later proclaiming what a dick the cop was, and you're the one on video being an ass... well...

A good cop will know all the answers to any question related to why you were stopped... so go ahead and ask. It's keeps them sharp, and you can learn as well. You'll never win a roadside trial, so don't bother trying to impress with tales of how your uncle's friend's co-worker beat a ticket just like the one you are getting. When I tell you that you are free to go, and you wonder what I am doing still sitting on the side of the road - I am making notes in case you contest the ticket. If you truly, honestly think you are innocent, you should do the same... take pictures, get statements from witnesses... because a judge is interested in hearing evidence... not excuses.

Review you local statutes for what is an arrestable offence. In Canada, the only Motor Vehicle Act offences you can be arrested for are No Insurance, leaving the scene of an accident, and driving while prohibited. You can't be arrested for speeding... unless it is so ridiculous you are arrested for Criminal Code dangerous driving...

[Friday]

Originally Posted by mojo

Sorry Friday, but you are missing my point. And here is your original quote:

"My own opinion and experience is that people need to be situationally aware. The example of someone being car-jacked, kidnapped, and robbed brings up two thoughts... how could a person be so unaware of their surroundings that they'd be a victim... and, if that person was so unaware, would a gun, bat, or whatever really have changed the outcome?"

Two thoughts here.
#1) The only thing that scares me is that a law officer would make the statement "how could a person be so unaware of their surroundings that they'd be a victim." Well it happens all the time. This shows a total lack of understanding or empathy for what a victim of a violent crime experiences.

#2)"if that person was so unaware, would a gun, bat, or whatever really have changed the outcome?" We'll never know, since I was unarmed or prepared the first time. But after training in defensive handgun tactics, threat management and legal use of deadly force, if it should happen again, the situation could be different.

I can see how you've read that into my comment, and I apologize... my point was that an unaware person isn't suddenly going to become aware because they have access to a tool. I deal with victims all the time, and my empathy is just fine... I've knocked on more doors and delivered NOK's than I can remember... sometimes oblivious to the mess my kit is still in... but in a hurry to try beat Facebook to mom & dad's house with the news their child is dead.

In a chance encounter with a mom who lost her daughter in an MVA, we ended up on a ski hill together for a volunteer day... for the first time ever, I had a person I had delivered the 'news' to engage ME in conversation about how I prepare for it, what I am thinking, and how I deal with it after...

... it was quite a powerful conversation for both of us... because she really needed to know the whole story about her daughter... how hard people tried and how it affected all of us... because all she had been thinking about over the year was how everyone else was dealing with the loss...

... anyway ... sometimes the crappiest part of this job makes for some very powerful connections with people...

[Goin camping]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

I recall that several people in the area had guns, but didn't use them. One was cautioned to put it away after the shooter was subdued because when the cops came they might shoot him. Because the shooter had an assault weapon, there was hardly any time to act before he exhausted the clip. He was in the middle of a crowd and if anyone had tried to shoot him, they would likely have hit bystanders.

I am not aware of hearing about people with concealed or unconcealed guns ever stopping bad guys although there was at least one post in this thread about that—the guy (Sodbust?—I read it this morning so I am not sure) who chased off some bullies from a bar. I'm sure some good guys have saved someone, but with all the talk how if everyone carried a gun it would prevent or reduce crime, I'd think I'd have heard about this happening, but never do.

Gene

Hi Gene,

The shooter in Tucson had a glock pistol. Assault weapons are fully automatic rifles AKA machine guns.

Twenty some odd States have passed "Shall Issue" laws which means the gov. of those states must issue a CCW unless the person applying has a criminal record or mental issues. According to the FBI all of those states had large drops in crim. Some states even had double digit drops in person on person crimes. Criminals don't like being shot either.

Every copy of the American Rifleman has a page called "The Armed Citizen." Every month there are fifteen or so newspaper articles about folks with firearms protecting themselves or others.

Just some food for thought.

[purman]

Originally Posted by Goin camping

Hi Gene,

The shooter in Tucson had a glock pistol. Assault weapons are fully automatic rifles AKA machine guns.

Twenty some odd States have passed "Shall Issue" laws which means the gov. of those states must issue a CCW unless the person applying has a criminal record or mental issues. According to the FBI all of those states had large drops in crim. Some states even had double digit drops in person on person crimes. Criminals don't like being shot either.

Every copy of the American Rifleman has a page called "The Armed Citizen." Every month there are fifteen or so newspaper articles about folks with firearms protecting themselves or others.

Just some food for thought.

Assault weapons are not machine guns. This is a big misconception. He assault weapon you buy in a gun store are semi auto. It will shoot every time you pull the trigger. Most assault looking rifles come with a 30 round clip. It is very hard to purchase a machine gun. In most states it is illegal and the ones that do allow it you need a federal permit. An assault rifle is based on what it looks like not it's function.

[Sodbust]

Originally Posted by Goin camping

Hi Gene,

Every copy of the American Rifleman has a page called "The Armed Citizen." Every month there are fifteen or so newspaper articles about folks with firearms protecting themselves or others.

Just some food for thought.

The first page I always turn too when I get my paper.. !!!!!

Just what MSNBC,,, CNN never report..

Sodbust

[xrvr]

AH, Mr. Moore, along with MS Fonda et al, not my favorite people. Isn't! he canadian? Jim

[fmr.capt.evi]

I recommend the "Traveler's Guide to the Firearm Laws of the Fifty States"...it's a great quick reference guide, and it's under 20 bucks. The website: Gunlaws for the 50 States.

[Ultradog]

IMO, The people who are being rude on this thread are the anti gunners.
Just saying...

[mack-in-nc]

I cannot help but think something has happened to society in general...I posted the below recently on facebook...

you know this has occurred to me...back in the 1950s when I was growing up...you could walk into almost any hardware store in the country and come out with a rifle or shotgun or even a handgun. You could pick up any outdoor magazine, (outdoor life, field and stream, sports afield etc) and find page after page of ads of companies who would deliver a firearm right to your front door...nearly every family, (and every family I knew) had a shotgun or rifle standing in the corner, (I remember a relative who had winchester model 1895 standing there..)Guns were COMMON in other words...and yet, we didn't shoot up places of employment..we didn't shoot up schools, we did not shoot up restaurants...a child shooting himself or herself while playing with a family owned firearm was rare...mass murder was rare...

now firearms are uncommon but all these not so desireable things are fairly common. So it seems to me that the question is what changed? did the guns change? or did we?

[Gene]

I haven't looked up the definition of "assault weapon", but a pistol that shoots 15 or so rounds really fast seems pretty assaultive to me. Machine guns have been illegal since around the 1920's when the Prohibition-caused crime wave occurred.

As for how many people have been saved injury by citizens with guns, I have never seen the magazine and probably never will. I don't know whether it is objective or not. I don't hear of this happening in the various publications I read. I'll take your word that some people have been protected. The other side of this is how many people are killed or injured by guns in the US—I see the numbers regularly in the media and can't remember the specifics, but I know it is very high—10's of thousands I believe. That should be a concern. If so many thousands are injured by guns and 15 or so are protected per month, where is the balance?

There may have been guns everywhere where Mack-in-NC was growing up, but there were none where I grew up. Hand guns were strictly regulated and I never saw a gun (except in movies and such) until 2 of my Aunts bought a house in rural Pa. and a neighbor let me shoot his rifle—I was about 10 or 11. There are very different gun cultures in different places. Guns eventually flowed into my state from other states where there were few or no regulations and became commonplace in certain parts of the state. To me, there was a time when guns were rare and now they are everywhere—so we see it differently because of our different backgrounds.

Jim, if you are referring to Michael Moore, he is from Flint, Michigan, not Canada.

This thread is also branching into comment on the police. Before the late '60's and the Vietnam protests, cops seemed to act differently as I recall. They weren't as defensive and ready to treat people harshly. Perhaps it is different in Canada—my experience with Canadian law enforcement is at the border where the border people (are they cops, customs, guards?) are generally friendly. When returning to the US, the border cops are unfriendly and aggressive. Where we live now, cops are very underpaid and you get what you pay for. I've known quite a few cops over time (family, professionally) and mostly they were nice people when not being cops, but when they were working, I'm not so sure. Sometimes I've met cops because they thought (erroneously) I was driving too fast, something that hasn't happened since the 55 mph speed limit was eliminated. They were generally professional. A couple of years ago I met a bully cop in Santa Fe who wanted to give me a parking ticket for parking in a place where there were no signs and a faint yellow painted curb which could not be seen in the dark. When I told him, semi-politely but very firmly, he was wrong and why, like most bullies, he backed down—he didn't give me a ticket, but insisted I move the SUV and leave my wife in the restaurant nearby (this was his way of saving face), so I drove down the block, turned around and picked her up. Cops, like everyone else, are different and some are good and some are bad. The problem with bad cops is that they have so much power—long ago I read an article about how cops are far more likely to arrest and hassle people who are "assholes". The cops interviewed admitted it. Since everyone is an asshole sometimes, everyone becomes a criminal under this standard. There are plenty of studies to show that people with great power are prone to abuse it. The best known studies deal with prison guards, but politicians and cops have the same temptations.

Aage and Casa, thanks for trying to teach me how to quote multiple threads. It sounds kind of simple, but i just haven't gotten around to trying it. It took me a couple of years to have an avatar after all.

Gene

[polarlyse]

I have browsed through this thread and have to sum my feelings up. They are my feelings only. Glad to be born an American where we can enjoy so much freedom. I'm a retired police officer ( 25 yrs ) and also retired from the US Military ( 20 yrs). I have been around weapons most of my adult life and carried one daily for many years. When I retired I obtained a concealed weapons permit here in NJ. It was easy for retired police in a state known for being very tight with permits. Since I've retired I have never bothered to carry the darn thing. Maybe I just don't hang in the places that make me even want to. We've traveled the country in our AS while camping in remote places as well as developed campgrounds and have never had the occasion to even wish I had one with me. I let the permit expire a few years ago. ( I can update it if I choose, anytime). I do keep pepper spray nearby and will use it if I need it. But a handgun, no thanks. Not comfortable carrying it all the time and not comfortable leaving it in a trailer or vehicle anytime. Maybe, one of these days, I will have a reason to change my opinion but for the time being and based on my experiences, no thanks.

I have a Norwegian Police Officer friend that has served in Afghanistan several times in support of the UN Mission there. She says that we hit the lottery being born where we were. ( Norway & USA). I agree fully.

[xrvr]

He may from mich. Have you seen his birth certificate? Now that is funny. Jim

[Eagle & Bear]

When I grew up guns were considered an essential and useful tool. When he was 10, my great grandfather walked to school. Early in the morning he would fix a lunch and grab the Stevens 410 and a few shells. Within the two miles on his way to school he would shoot ducks or other game and sell them to the people in town. He would take the money they gave him and buy more shotgun shells. After school he would repeat the prcess and take the game home. I remember show and tell in 3rd grade (1958). One of the students brought a shotgun to school to show how it was built. No one felt threatened. No one called the police. It was just a gun.

Living in a rural community we all had guns. No one was wealthy enough to collect them; they were just tools. By the time I was five I could shot a 22 rifle safely. That same 22 was used to slaughter the calves we raised each year. When I was 10 I was given a 30-30. I spent the next 15 seasons hunting deer in the Sierras with my grandfather. It was all part of our lifestyle and heritage.

I am now retired and traveling full time in our Airstream. We have stayed in a broad range of places as we travel. Parking at an RV park in Las Vegas that is filled with meth freaks has the potential to be extremly dangerous. Other small RV parks could have been used as a movie set for a Hitchcock thriller. Because I am doing wilderness photography we often stay in remote camp sites that are adjacent to a wilderness area or National Park. Bears can be a real problem but so are some of those same meth freaks and sociopaths that are looking for a place far away from the local sheriff's patrol.

Because I am proactive and remain situationally aware I have been able to avoid confrontations for the past 40 years but I cannot count on my good looks and charm to get me out of a jam forever. We can argue probability and possibility almost endlessly but I would rather live with the aftermath of shooting a bad guy than living with the images of my family members being assaulted and killed by some whack job because I could not stop him/her.

I still have my great grandfather's Stevens 410, the 30-30 my grandfather gave me and my mother's 22 rifle but they are worthless for self defense. I also have a stanless steel "Judge" hand gun by Tarus. It allows me to shoot both 410 shells and Colt 45 longs. Since I do not want to be throwing large chuncks of lead around at 1800fps in an RV park I put three 410 shells loaded with bird shot in the first three chambers. The bird shot will certainly get an intruder's attention without risking injuring anyone else nearby. There are also two 45s in the last two chambers of the revolver. The 45s will only be used if he/she did not get the hint with the first three rounds.

[Lily&Me]

Originally Posted by Friday

That is entirely a personal choice... and not a matter of law. You don't have to be polite, or respectful... because the officer has a gun. He's not going to shoot you for being an asshole, and can't arrest you without cause. I'd expect you would chose to be polite because you realize he/she is doing their job, and their day just goes a lot better when people are nice.

I agree, but also that being "situationally aware" includes being so with law enforcement.

While I expect I would always choose to be polite and cooperative because the officer is just doing their job, if I felt I were being hassled I would be very, very cautious about not being so and asserting myself at the time regarding their actions. There are crazy people out there, and some of them are in law enforcement.

Not so concerned about being shot or arrested, one can have their day seriously derailed by an arrogant person in uniform. I would rather appeal an unwarranted ticket (and have done so) than challenge their behavior on the street, regardless of what the cameras might capture and prove in time. It can take awhile to get to that point.


Maggie

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Eagle & Bear

Because I am proactive and remain situationally aware I have been able to avoid confrontations for the past 40 years but I cannot count on my good looks and charm to get me out of a jam forever.

I believe I too am situationally aware. When in a big city in an unfamiliar area I automatically assess the place and look between vehicles, down alleys, into doorways. I look at people and assess their attitude, body language and size. It comes with growing up in a very large city. I don't like going into that mode. Living in a rural area, there are different things to assess. There are some really bad actors around, but not many (not many people means fewer bad ones). Rural areas are not like Currier and Ives America, a place that never existed anyway.

My only confrontation on the street in 71 years (not counting school yard stuff) was in an upscale exurb in front of a bar—I resolved it in a few seconds when the bad guy was off balance throwing a drunken roundhouse punch that never landed. If we had guns, one or both of us probably would have been dead. I tried to avoid him; in Fla. I could have shot and killed him (should the penalty for a drunken attempt to hit someone be death?). If he pulled out a gun, he could have fired before I did. Since he was drunk, I might have survived and he wouldn't have. I used the power of his attempted punch against him and he fell down conveniently located steps and he was a mess. I went in the bar seeking allies and drank a beer.

Guns escalate conflict as well calm it—another area of many claims and whether objectuve stats exist would be a good thing to find out. My above example shows (to me, anyway) guns would have just as easily escalated it as calmed it.

The media promotes fear—it raises ratings and makes money. Fear of crime is far more a concern for people than it was before the late '60's even though crime rates are far lower in the last decade or two than for generations. It has been to certain politician's advantage to promote racial and ethnic fears—this has been true of American politics for hundreds of years. With national media more persuasive than ever, promoting fear has become perfected. I think many people respond to the perception of danger than the reality if it. The irony of this is that it results in more and more guns and more and more powerful ones in the society. Don't we have more guns in the US than anywhere else? And more gun deaths? The more guns, the more manage to eventually get into the hands of bad guys, or not very careful good guys.

A greater danger than pure numbers, is the perception to the way to solve problems is with guns and intimidation. Buying into the fear decreases the comity that an advanced society relies on. Must we go back to the Middle Ages with walled cities (some suburbs sort of imitate this with gates communities)? Does everyone have to have a sword and chain mail to travel?

Gene

[danlehosky]

Gene is right, the culture of gun ownership is many different things in many different parts of the country.
I grew up in rural Western Washington State. Guns were around and were taken for granted. Except in our house. My mother would not allow any firearms on our property. I don't know why but that was the rule. I have never owned or carried a gun because in some ways her insistence and intolerance on this subject must have worn off on me. Both of my brothers however have CWP and rarely leave home without them and somtimes it makes me uncomfortable when I am waiting for one of them to see them getting their wallets, putting on their watches, glasses and strapping on their guns. It's part of the way they get dressed. Like a nice accessory piece.
With my family I have tent camped extensively all over the Western part of North America, Mexico and Central America. All the way from the Brooks Range to Bogota Columbia with no incident.
We were aware there may have been some dangers but truthfully we were more worried about preditory animals than violent humans.

The post the other day about the syringes in trees however was frightening.
I would feel uncomfortable in a campground where there is lots of drinking going on and I knew lots of people were armed.
I was taking a Psychology class one time and the road rage and gun subject came up and the general concensus was that we as humans are equipped emotionally to handle our anger with our bodies. When you get furious and kick or punch somebody you will either wear yourself out cool down real fast with a retalitory punch. When we get in cars and carry guns your most people take the same set of emotions and have much bigger and faster and more deadly ways to deal with their rage.
This is only one aspect and one that I think deserves consideration. How many people that buy guns take the necessary time to train themselves to properly use them? How many people train themselves to react in an effective way in a panic situation? Not manyI think.
In my mind this is the problem. I don't want some old fool sitting next to me sipping on a bottle of Wild Turkey getting spooked by a Coyote and start blazing away.
I know the world is changing, but it has ben changing for thousands of years and some people have alwaysbeen violent. Nothing has changed about that.
I am aware, careful and try to honest about where we are camping. I did all of these things before we would unload. I had 3 kids with me so I was very careful. Those kids saw Mt Mckinley, Yucon, BC, The three most western states all the way down to the border. We backpacked, camped then moved. It was a wonderful experience for them.
I'm to old (62) and my habits are to deeply embedded in me to make many changes.If I added a gun to I think it would change my experience.

Quite honestly I have never felt unprotected.
Dan

[danlehosky]

I know I have to start proofing my posts. But you guys get the idea.

[Action]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

—another area of many claims and whether objectuve stats exist would be a good thing to find out. My above example shows (to me, anyway) guns would have just as easily escalated it as calmed it.

Gene

The stats do exist. All deaths of all types are reported to the CDC in every way you can imagine. By age, by gender, by race, by type of death and ..... I think if you look only at gun related deaths (something like 18,000 a year) the far majority (over 50%) are suicides. The next largest number is a homcide from some one that is known by the person that was shot. This is the vast bulk of reasons for a gun related death.
Accidental deaths are in there and one of the last categories is a gun related death either justifiable or unjustifible by a unknown person.

A gun user has the capacity to end a life very easily with little or no training. By eliminating all fire arms, gun related deaths would decrease, no doubt. However I am not convinced the violence or bad behavior or bad choice would change. Even violent deaths would still continue, look at recorded history from the begining.

>>>>>>>Action