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Old 05-11-2012, 11:44 AM   #85
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What I am getting at is....this is no longer the 1950's people are out there to hurt or steal from you and if you are elderly you become more of a target....everyoneis a target.

Shane
I guess that is the difference right there... American's have been told they are like sheep waiting to be slaughtered... that around every corner is a person wearing a hoodie waiting to rob and rape you.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:57 AM   #86
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In your experience, how can you make this kind of assessment with out knowing the facts?

Training is as important as carrying.

Are you in law enforcement?

- I'm not making an assessment - I am asking the question that if someone isn't aware of a developing situation involving someone else using force against them, is it reasonable to expect they will be prepared to respond? If someone has a gun pointed at you, it's too late.

- I agree that training is paramount. But, I also know that to be effective in the scenarios described here requires a mindset and physical skill that is substantial. I'll go back to one of my origin questions... "Why do hundreds of people stand in a circle around a school while children are being murdered inside?". It's because when the fan descends into the crap - people go into a default mode. Unless you train for 'active shooter' situations, most peoples' default is to run, hide, and call 9-1-1. Why? Because that is what their training is (or lack of training enforces). You also have to consider the matter of self-preservation, and while many would like to think they'd sacrifice themselves to save another... the mind plays some very good tricks on people to try keep the person alive. I'm not faulting the people in these situations, but look at a Columbine or a Virginia Tech to see how brains stop working the way you want them to.

- Yes, I am in law enforcement. But, I speak for myself and my own experiences, and make no claim that I am a representative of my employer on this forum. If it is important to you, I can speak more to that in a PM.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:07 PM   #87
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What concerns me about these gun threads and all their goofy reasons for carrying firearms is that others read this crap and think they need one too.

Personally I don't care if you mount a gun turret on top your Airstream. After all it's a free country. Never know when you might need it. Can feel confident you can handle any situation. You are trained and proficient with it. Etc.

But don't imply it's a good idea. It makes you more dangerous to your fellow campers than the boogie man himself.

And after you put the guy down, there's a good chance you are headed for the pokey, maybe for a long time.

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Old 05-11-2012, 12:15 PM   #88
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Is it me or have our Consitutional rights being slowly taken away

I want to bring .22 to plink and mess around with. So if I head to CA with big clip on ruger I may be breaking local laws? And from what I know about California right now they are looking to write tickets and make money any way they can. If you do not come to a complete stop at some lights you receive a $500 ticket in mail.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:25 PM   #89
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Looks like it's getting unpleasant and confrontational, beginning with post #87. Oh well, several of us tried to keep it nice.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:46 PM   #90
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Well, that's an opinion of nice that I don't share. The point is its not useful, and maybe dangerous, to suggest to others its a good idea to carry firearms. It would be better for all if these gun threads ended at post #1.

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Old 05-11-2012, 12:53 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Friday View Post
- I'm not making an assessment - I am asking the question that if someone isn't aware of a developing situation involving someone else using force against them, is it reasonable to expect they will be prepared to respond? If someone has a gun pointed at you, it's too late.

- I agree that training is paramount. But, I also know that to be effective in the scenarios described here requires a mindset and physical skill that is substantial. I'll go back to one of my origin questions... "Why do hundreds of people stand in a circle around a school while children are being murdered inside?". It's because when the fan descends into the crap - people go into a default mode. Unless you train for 'active shooter' situations, most peoples' default is to run, hide, and call 9-1-1. Why? Because that is what their training is (or lack of training enforces). You also have to consider the matter of self-preservation, and while many would like to think they'd sacrifice themselves to save another... the mind plays some very good tricks on people to try keep the person alive. I'm not faulting the people in these situations, but look at a Columbine or a Virginia Tech to see how brains stop working the way you want them to

- Yes, I am in law enforcement. But, I speak for myself and my own experiences, and make no claim that I am a representative of my employer on this forum. If it is important to you, I can speak more to that in a PM.
This is all speculation. The point is that your statement that:

"how could a person be so unaware of their surroundings that they'd be a victim"

is a poor assessment and the fact that it is being made by a law enforcement officer is truly amazing.

I don't think anyone here has brought up the topic of saving the world. Where many of us travel there is no phone service, 911, or law enforcement. It is about being prepared.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:07 PM   #92
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These guns threads seem to go bad really fast. Some of those who want guns seem also to be people who are ready to flame those who do not want guns. Maybe angry people should not be allowed guns.

Attacking Canadians who tell of their experiences is not going to solve anything. Canada has few handguns and a much lower death rate from guns. How is that hard to understand? The fact that Canada is colder does not prove anything—Alaska is really cold and has lots of gun deaths just like hot states like Florida and Texas.

I've never owned a gun and don't want or need one. Bear spray works on dangerous animals and it is not fatal. Guns fired in a campground may kill or injure people in RV's—all RV's have thin walls. I have fired a few guns owned by others—they feel really powerful. I'm sure it feels good when you have one you can fire anytime, but I feel powerful enough without a gun.

Terry posted links to gun threads in #25. I'm sure the same things were said in those as is being said here, but newbies may want to say them again, so have at it.

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Old 05-11-2012, 01:25 PM   #93
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I guess that is the difference right there... American's have been told they are like sheep waiting to be slaughtered... that around every corner is a person wearing a hoodie waiting to rob and rape you.
If you read my post completely... Then you would understand my points... You selective reasoning has no merit to my post.

I love choices.

I choose to use my choice.

Stream safe.

Shane
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:45 PM   #94
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To continue a nice exchange of opinions, it seems reasonable to me that a responsible adult who completes the training and passes the backround check, presents no threat whatsoever to public safety. Fortunately, all but about two states agree.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:55 PM   #95
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Gene, I don't think this is about being maucho or feeling powerful, or even being an angry type of person, it's about being able to be prepared in an emergency. If you have never experienced someone wanting to kill you with a gun or rifle, I guess it may be difficult to understand, but if it does happen, and if you have nothing to defend yourself with it's too late to wish you had a weapon handy.
I personally have been the guy looking down the barrel from the wrong end and it gets a little uncomfortable no matter how big or strong you are. I was lucky as the person got distracted at the last moment, and well, I'm still here. I usually don't carry a pistol, but I always have some sort of weapon handy, just in case. You never know!
The saying "Better to be safe than sorry", comes to mind.

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Old 05-11-2012, 02:47 PM   #96
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That is a valid example... but the introduction of MORE guns wouldn't have prevented that situation... and may have even increased the damage done.

Someone mentioned, and it's true, that sometimes things are going to happen without warning and for no apparent reason (to the innocent bystander). What can be done about that? Nothing at the time it happens... the change has to come from the justice system that hammers hard on senseless violence that risks innocent people. Biker gangs know this - it's bad news if the hurt a 'dove' in their business, because they know it brings the heat on them hard.
Was yanking your Sam Brown there, Constable, hoping for just that kind of response.

The gun issue goes far beyond "Should I?" or "Shouldn't I?" The gun/gang issue here is entwined by economic, cultural, societal/judicial issues.

Kudos to the citizens of Abbotsford for recognizing that they are not truly "innocent" if they do nothing. They turned Abbotsford from the murder capital of Canada to a zero murder rate in a relatively short time. The response from citizens was akin to that classic scene from Network...."I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

What followed was a massive anti-gang campaign campaign which was embraced by the media, politicians, police, and ultimately the justice system. One notorious Abbotsford gangster has been sentenced to 12 years for a drug conspiracy. To quote the investigating officer,
the sentence sends a powerful message to those who might want to emulate the gangster lifestyle. "They are either dead or incarcerated."
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:54 PM   #97
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Some of us would be shocked if we only knew, as we go about our daily activities, just how many folks around us are legally carrying concealed weapons for our personal protection...the thought kind of makes me smile.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:23 PM   #98
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"Vermont has the least restrictive gun laws in the country. Any resident may carry concealed without a permit unless they fall under Federal prohibitions. That being said as a Vermont resident I have no interest or need to do so. However I do like having the choice."

Arizona does not require a permit for concealed carry or open carry so what happened in Tucson? Why didn't anyone take down the kid that shot Congresswoman Giffords?

Same thing for the incident in Canada. Why did no one stop the crazy on the buss before he stabbed the guy in the next seat and cut his head off??

People have the means to stop the bad guys but they are not doing it. Why not?

As for violence in Canada; it occurrs at the same rate as in the US. They just use fists, feet, sticks of wood, hatchets, etc.
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