AS Club Experience? Likes, Dislikes, Good & Bad?

[mstephens]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

Boy, could I ever! But I am hoping there is someone more elequent than I with a good capacity to sum it up susccinctly. Anyone care to do justice to those that have fallen in duty? I must say it was given a very valiant effort met with very dire consequences. It is a shame, and now all but forgotten, and for naught.

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but I have no idea what you are talking about in the last two posts.

When I said I was surprised that there had been "no real challenge yet" - I didn't mean in the WBCCI, I meant a new and modern club for Airstream owners that would compete with the WBCCI on a national level.

If there has been such an attempt, I am just unaware of it.

[SteveH]

Just last year at the International rally, there was a motion to do away with the delegate voting, and go to individual member voting, either by absentee ballot, or by electronic means, and I think that would have really shaken up the club in a positive way, and brought newer ideas and activities in, but sadly, at least IMHO, it failed.

However, you would have had to have been there to understand why. It was presented to the delegates that were actually voting on the motion in an at least a ten minute dissertation how the sky was going to fall and the world might actually end if the motion was passed. You need to understand many of these delegates didn't really know what they were voting on, and most were intimidated by the club officers.

It was presented to the delegates that the delegates body would "cease to exist, and the club structure would just go away, and no one knew what would happen". Just one more way how the upper management of the club gets it's way.

However, there is one upcoming club officer that might be more receptive to making some meaningful changes to the club, but it will be several years in the future at best.

[SteveH]

One other item that was planned to be voted on last year was the Motorhome Amendment. That is the one that would allow owners of any motorhome built by Thor Industries, the parent company of Airstream, to be allowed membership in WBCCI.

Many of the officers of WBCCI are for this amendment they say because they are getting older and don't know how long they will be able to hookup and pull a trailer. So, the can't pull a trailer, but they can drive a 30,000 pound truck? I believe they just want a new motorhome, but a new Airstream motorhome isn't available. I do know there are lots of used Airstream motorhomes available.

Anyway, the motion was put on hold and referred to the rules committee because at this time the rules of the club state membership requirement "must own a hard-sided RV built by Airstream", or something like that. So, the executives haven't lost that one yet, so watch for it.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

Boy, could I ever! But I am hoping there is someone more elequent than I with a good capacity to sum it up susccinctly.

I am never eloquent or succinct, but I will give it a stab without crossing the line again. I am no longer a member and will never have another dog in the fight, so what I am about to say will have little bearing or respect from some who read it. I was a member, I no longer am....

There used to be a group of WB members who worked very hard and diligently from within the club to achieve some serious change. Their goal was to shift the top heavy power control more broadly and create an atmosphere where todays Airstream owners demographic benefited more. They were fought with every tool the old guard could muster. People were kicked out of the club, some were sued, but most just got tired of beating their heads against a very thick brick wall. Many members left in disgust. Some left out of protest. You can see when this happened by looking up the totals for membership, there is a rather dramatic drop beyond the normal downward trend. Just about all of the public information has been removed due to a suit brought by previous WB Forum host.
Everyone has moved on and now it seems a new group of people are talking about how to make it better. I hope they have better luck. From my point of view, they are not half as organized or vocal as the previous group was. I doubt they will get very far.

I look forward to the hate I will experience now. You are welcome to send it via "thanks" "PMs" or "email"

[eubank]

Maybe the very vocal nature of the old "reformers" and the hate involved in it was part and parcel to the failure of the attempt.

Lynn

Originally Posted by 62overlander

...Everyone has moved on and now it seems a new group of people are talking about how to make it better. I hope they have better luck. From my point of view, they are not half as organized or vocal as the previous group was. I doubt they will get very far.

I look forward to the hate I will experience now. You are welcome to send it via "thanks" "PMs" or "email"

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Yep, maybe. But the word maybe can go either direction can't it.

[mstephens]

Originally Posted by SteveH

Just last year at the International rally, there was a motion to do away with the delegate voting, and go to individual member voting, either by absentee ballot, or by electronic means, and I think that would have really shaken up the club in a positive way, and brought newer ideas and activities in, but sadly, at least IMHO, it failed.

Ahhh. I see. Thanks Steve. Yes, I knew about that in detail from our club delegate. (I also knew all about the MoHo issue).

I would say that all of that is part of the problem that could be solved with a new, modern club. It's easy to understand why members from 1962 wouldn't want to change, but it's not easy to see why members from 2012 would want to put up with that. I mean, I am sure Wally was an awfully nice fella, but I never met him, he's gone, I'm not, and I want to have some fun and adventure with friends in Airstreams, ya know?

As I said earlier, this is where too much tradition can become a boat anchor.

Thanks again for the explanation.

[mstephens]

BTW, clubs of all kinds fall into the trap of building an exclusive domain for old-timers. This is nothing new. Power structures of every kind seek ways to protect their power. It's the natural flow. What is supposed to prevent this from happening is democratic rule making. Usually, this exists at the beginning of any club, but becomes subverted with "special new rules" that get passed while no one is looking. Pretty soon, you have a cemented in power structure and lots of unhappy plebes.

The answer is universal and always the same -- REVOLT. That is how the air gets cleared and everyone can breathe again. In this case, REVOLT just means write a new charter with democratic rules, and let the people crossover whom will and forget the rest who can take their power into the "beyond" if you will.

When I was first told all these stories about the old-timers grip on things, I sort of laughed and said you gotta be kidding right? Why let them hold sway? There's no land involved, there's no money involved (long ago the AS company did put money in, but I think that has ended), there's no reason under the sun not to simply sit down with pen and paper and make a new Airstream world. It seemed utterly obvious to me as a newcomer. But, there is that tradition thing. And what I discovered is that people are fearful that they will lose all the tradition and won't be able to make new ones. There is some point to that, but I think they make too much out of it. In fact, good traditions worth keeping can even be kept. So, I finally concluded that the real hold back was just inertia.

[mstephens]

Originally Posted by 62overlander

I look forward to the hate I will experience now. You are welcome to send it via "thanks" "PMs" or "email"

I hope not. It's been a nice thread and very friendly. I'd be bummed if people started to get nasty with each other for the sake of discussion, right? Your comments were not hateful.

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by mstephens

But, there is that tradition thing. And what I discovered is that people are fearful that they will lose all the tradition and won't be able to make new ones. There is some point to that, but I think they make too much out of it. In fact, good traditions worth keeping can even be kept. So, I finally concluded that the real hold back was just inertia.

You are right, for the most part. It is tradition, but IMHO more about prestige. The officers of the club, from Region all the way up thru International, and all past officers in those positions, are treated like royalty at most big functions, and all the rest of the "regular members" are there to pay homage to the royalty, or so it appears to most of us.

At least, that is the impression that I and many other "regular members" take away from an International rally. Like a good friend of mine once said, "If you don't wear red pants, there's nothing there for you".

Again, don't get me wrong, I love our unit, and it's activities. The Region and International, not so much.

[mstephens]

Originally Posted by SteveH

You are right, for the most part. It is tradition, but IMHO more about prestige. The officers of the club, from Region all the way up thru International, and all past officers in those positions, are treated like royalty at most big functions, and all the rest of the "regular members" are there to pay homage to the royalty, or so it appears to most of us.

At least, that is the impression that I and many other "regular members" take away from an International rally. Like a good friend of mine once said, "If you don't wear red pants, there's nothing there for you".

Again, don't get me wrong, I love our unit, and it's activities. The Region and International, not so much.

Steve,
I totally understand what you are saying. The "red pants effect" flows downward into many unit leaders too (even when they don't admit it). In other words, their desire to be a part of that elite structure shows in how they act towards others. I've been there - I've seen it. This is why I said that it is NOT simply up to the newcomer to "take what's fun and leave the rest" because that newcomer has to live with the "red pants effect" in their local unit.

Airstream is selling new trailers like crazy - increasing production! Yahoo! Many new buyers are younger than 82 years old - - yahoo!~ These new buyers really don't care about "red pants." Yahoo! Now, all that's needed is a fresh pair of pants, some adventurous spirit, some gumption and new charter that is democratic and lets EVERYONE share in the fun & the responsibility for making Airstream adventuring the Number One RV activity in the USA! Yahoo!

I can feel the fresh breeze blowing out my door!

[daveswenson]

Why do I have this mental image of Madame Defarge, shouting "The guillotine, the guillotine!"?

[mstephens]

Originally Posted by daveswenson

Why do I have this mental image of Madame Defarge, shouting "The guillotine, the guillotine!"?

Hmm? Well, I don't knit and I rarely sit and watch.

[SteveSueMac]

Only a fool would rush in where angels fear to tread, so.... :fool:

What if someone started say the ASUWBC (Airstream Users Wally B. Club) with whatever more democratic rules seemed necessary and issued say green numbers? Would that help or just be more problematic? Is the current club the only option?

By the way - I signed up because of the tradition and joined a local chapter (going on a weekend soon) and also fully intend to solo and/or hang out with whomever we like whenever we like. Someday, God-willing I can retire, I LOVE the idea of a 3 month journey with fellow AS lovers...but would another club be such a bad idea if the current version doesn't meet ones needs?

Please re-read top line again :innocent!:

[RUMSHIP]

There is no one cure all.

You can please everyone some of the times, but you can't please some people all of the time.

Strive for excellence, except mediocrity.

[Condoluminum]

Back again, with a couple more points.. I am also pleased this thread is staying civil and polite.. By way of disclaimer, I've been a member of WBCCI since 2004, and continue paying dues plus 4CU dues (much less than Member at Large fee..). We've been to 2 "Event Rallies", 1 International Rally and several unit rallies. We are also active with Forum group that does 2 large rallies/year in northern Calif, and have attended 1 R&B "Aluma" event in Tucson this year..

The "Motorhome Wars" were very uncivil, and were linked at some level to name changing initiatives. My sense was that vast majority of those high-level officers have already transitioned to motorhome ownership, and don't want to go back to or deal with trailers.. Odd since that is all Airstream has built for roughly 10 years, but that was painful.

Similarly, reformers suggested changing name to reflect Airstream directly, and that actually triggered trademark concerns in Ohio factory, and there is little room to diminish or mis-use the name in any way.. That was behind this Forum changing its name as well, as the Airstream brand was extended and evolved. No new club could use the term "Airstream" in its name or materials without some permission and rules from the company. Similarly, use of images or designs are also protected. This is a good thing and necessary under the law, but t would keep anyone here from creatively starting their own "Airstream Fun Camping Club"..

Finally, I strongly concur with opinion that so many of leadership positions filled by people with many years of tradition that they really aren't interested or eager to change "their club" and continue pressing new owners and potential members to "get comfortable and enjoy" the club they are running.. Some do, many don't.. And yes, some units are great, run by younger people, focused on weekends and short trips, with few rules and minimal structure.. Others are different, and often aging and winding down. You can enjoy your Airstream solo or with a few new friends or as part of group other than a "unit" after a while. I'd recommend to anyone still following this thread to give a variety of options a try.. After 10 years, we still enjoy our Airstream, still enjoy interesting places and activities and still feel like part of a community. Thursday local unit rallies at fairgrounds aren't a part of the program for us, but we are fine being connected to a larger and happier group centered some distance from us. As the famous saying goes, your mileage may vary...

[dkottum]

Interesting the that the stuck-in-tradition, unwilling-to-change, living-in-the-past descriptions of the WBCCI here also apply to the Airstream trailers themselves.

Good traditions evolve slowly; we're fortunate to have both of these.

doug k

[mstephens]

Originally Posted by Condoluminum

This is a good thing and necessary under the law, but t would keep anyone here from creatively starting their own "Airstream Fun Camping Club"..

I don't see the word "Airstream" as creating any barrier to the creation of a modern club for Airstream enjoyment.

In the first case, I think "Airstream Owners Club" falls under the nominative use doctrine of the copyright law. (Nominative use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

But, if that is NOT the case, such names as "AirTrails" with a little bit of advertising would do just as well. I would probably side toward the latter just to avoid any contentious feelings.

Your comments regarding the uncivil nature of the various reforms attempted speak well of the idea of "starting with a clean sheet of paper." Knowing what I know of the reform efforts (a bit here and there from participants) I would call it "hitting your head on a wall."

[Condoluminum]

Wrong place for legal discussion, but copyright fair use and trademark fair use are very different.. Airstream Inc. and Thor have been very assertive in pursuing non-licensed uses of their trademarks in the past... The name change for this Forum is good case in point...

There have been multiple discussions around "Starting over.." in prior years, and none have succeeded in really getting off the ground.. I suspect informal regional Forum groups and events are going to continue to expand and become more popular.. Eventually the Forum crowd and styles will begin to influence the WB crowd, but it will take a while...

[mstephens]

No doubt "starting over" would face a tremendous inertia. It's not easy to do. Right now I don't think most new buyers are joining WBCCI. Meaning the non-W population is growing faster than the W population. Given that there are numerous benefits to a organized club, there will no doubt be a point where the inertia can be overcome. I hope so!