Is using the furnace while we sleep dangerous?

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

Many home furnaces have the fire inside the living space, and carbon monoxide is a problem. It's a completely different situation than an RV furnace that has the fire outside. Apples, meet oranges.

Until the heat exchanger cracks or a gasket fails. There is not a whole lot of difference between and RV furnace and a home furnace. They both are combustion furnaces with some sort of heat exchanger to keep the burning process separate from the interior space.

When you burn just about anything you produce CO. I used to clean stores for a living, we had big propane powered buffers, had to carry a CO detector, if it went off we had to shut down until the air cleared up.

Aaron

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

Until the heat exchanger cracks or a gasket fails. There is not a whole lot of difference between and RV furnace and a home furnace. They both are combustion furnaces with some sort of heat exchanger to keep the burning process separate from the interior space.

My memory of home furnaces is different than you describe. I clearly remember, right up until I went away to college, we always lived in a home with gas heat, and the furnaces were built into the walls and had the flame right there in the living spaces, separated by only a ceramic grille. I can remember as a kid using the blue flames as a nightlight. If one of those furnaces ever had a pilot light go out, we'd surely have woken up dead one morning…

[rodsterinfl]

"Every winter when the temperature drops, your furnace can become a silent killer. Gas- and oil-burning furnaces produce carbon monoxide (CO). CO is an invisible, odorless, poison gas that kills hundreds every year and makes thousands more sick."

This is true IF the furnace is contained within a dwelling similar to what Protagonist is saying. The same with the flame on the stove IF a yellow flame is seen. The primary danger in our case is LP leakage and explosions due to build-up and then spark or flame. Imagine getting up after a night of sleep with a gas leak and lighting the stove to make breakfast and boom! Consider too that if a CO detector was a required safety component on a travel trailer without an engine or exhaust, it would be a part of required safety equipment. The LP monitor is required. Each fitting is a potential leak and they are at the water heater, the refrigerator, the stove and the furnace.

Your RV and Carbon monoxide detectors publication info:

Carbon monoxide can be found in the exhaust of gas engines (such as generators) and also in the exhaust coming from the furnace in your RV that is keeping you toasty warm all night.

The importance of having an RV alarm for this danger has been emphasized in more recent years, but is only now being required in residential homes.

*Note that it is the exhaust.

[dkottum]

There are four propane devices within the shell of our trailer. Furnace, range, water heater, and range. I know the seals around the fridge compartment are not windproof, I don't know about the water heater and furnace, the range fire is directly inside.

We need CO warnings for these if a failure should occur, as well as ventilation when using the range.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

My memory of home furnaces is different than you describe. I clearly remember, right up until I went away to college, we always lived in a home with gas heat, and the furnaces were built into the walls and had the flame right there in the living spaces, separated by only a ceramic grille. I can remember as a kid using the blue flames as a nightlight. If one of those furnaces ever had a pilot light go out, we'd surely have woken up dead one morning…

I grew up in Minnesota but later we had two gas wall heaters in our house in San Diego. Yes you could see the flame but the combustion air was pulled in from the house interior and vented through a flue out the roof. A thermocouple sensed when the pilot light when out and a valve shut off the gas supply so we didn't wake up dead.

There are unvented gas space heaters around today needing room ventilation, but I wouldn't use one while sleeping.

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

My memory of home furnaces is different than you describe. I clearly remember, right up until I went away to college, we always lived in a home with gas heat, and the furnaces were built into the walls and had the flame right there in the living spaces, separated by only a ceramic grille. I can remember as a kid using the blue flames as a nightlight. If one of those furnaces ever had a pilot light go out, we'd surely have woken up dead one morning…

Even those produce some CO, I have had a few houses with them, as long as they are burning clean with a blue flame they are fine. I probably should have made it a bit clearer that CO is a by-product of incomplete combustion. Not a winter goes by where someone, somewhere dies of a bad furnace or bad chimney allowing CO to enter the living space on a house.

Don't know why CO detectors aren't required by law on RV's as well. In most if not all states anytime you have a fossil fuel, coal or wood fired heating system or appliance you are required to have a CO detector.

There was a bad set of incidents here in NC recently where an elderly couple and then a younger boy were killed in the same room of a hotel on two different nights due to CO caused by an improperly installed flue for the gas fired pool heater, apparently it was below or adjacent to the room and allowed CO to enter. The installation had not been inspected because it was installed without proper permitting.

Aaron

[rodsterinfl]

We need CO warnings for these if a failure should occur, as well as ventilation when using the range.

It is good to be safe; however, with regard to propane, CO comes from the improper burn at flame point. Three of our flames are outside and the exhaust of the furnace is outside as well. The most likely "while sleeping" would be the furnace and fridge and not the stove or water heater. The fridge is sealed out as is the flame point of the furnace. Build up would be minimal outside.

[Gnorts]

Originally Posted by cantdrv55

My brother-in-law, owner of an SOB, says I should not use the furnace as it runs on propane while we sleep due to possible carbon monoxide leaks. He says to buy a small electric heater. The AS has a propane leak detector but not yet a CO leak detector. Does anyone use a portable electric heater instead of their furnace?

You don't mention the age of your trailer, but if it's over ten years old, a CO detector wouldn't be a bad idea. RV propane furnaces aren't all that elegantly constructed,, and the mild steel heat exchangers are known to rust through from condensation forming during the cool-down cycles, especially in places with cool, damp weather.

There's a lot of dancing around the subject in this thread, but what we need to remember is that safety devices, whether or not required by standards, become indispensable when a series of benign events combine to present a real and present danger: furnace with a dirty burner, with old sealant that doesn't effectively isolate the combustion chamber from the trailer's interior, and then the wind is blowing from the wrong direction, and presto you have a deadly situation. CO detectors are cheap insurance, and remember that their sensors also become contaminated over time and they must be replaced periodically.

[m.hony]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

Watts are watts, there's no magic in Edenpure or "Amish Heater" or whatever. The Dyson everyone raves about is probably only more pleasing because it has a proper thermostat and perhaps different airflow characteristics than most. Other than the quality of the thermostat and differences in sound (fan vs. convection, loud fan vs. quiet, etc) you're going to get a very similar amount of heat from any 1500w electric heater.

The "magic" in the EdenPURE is in the type of heating element, and there appears to be 3 different models with 3 different types of heating elements. The "magic" is in the design- that it won't burn you or start a fire- and that it effectively warms a room- reportedly without running the light bill too much-

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by m.hony

The "magic" in the EdenPURE is in the type of heating element, and there appears to be 3 different models with 3 different types of heating elements.

The real "trick" is that intake air is passed by the heating element three times before being blown into the room, so there's less waste heat. If you have less waste heat, you use less energy to provide the same usable heat.

But other than the airflow inside the box, it's not a whole lot different from any other electric space heater.

[graysailor]

Using the furnace at night is completely safe. With regards to CO detectors they now have them with a 10 year battery life for around $40.00. Can be found at ACE, Home Depot, Lowe's etc.

[idroba]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

The real "trick" is that intake air is passed by the heating element three times before being blown into the room, so there's less waste heat. If you have less waste heat, you use less energy to provide the same usable heat.

But other than the airflow inside the box, it's not a whole lot different from any other electric space heater.

Sorry, I could not resist. There is no "waste heat" with an electric heater. Each watt converts into 3.41 btu. It does not disappear somewhere into "waste", never to heat anything.

If your television takes 100 watts, it heats the room at the rate of 341 btu. The energy which goes to the screen and comes out as light and the sound energy all winds up as heat in the room. It is not wasted.

If any electric heater is 1000 watts and you use it for one hour, it will add 3410 btuh (british thermal units per hour) to the room.

If you ran the 100 watt television for an hour, it would add 341 btuh to the room.

As stated by DBSATX, there is no magic about any electric heater. Equal watts produces equal heat. Advertising does not change physics, as much as the writers would like to have you believe it does.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by idroba

Sorry, I could not resist. There is no "waste heat" with an electric heater. Each watt converts into 3.41 btu. It does not disappear somewhere into "waste", never to heat anything.

If your television takes 100 watts, it heats the room at the rate of 341 btu. The energy which goes to the screen and comes out as light and the sound energy all winds up as heat in the room. It is not wasted.

If any electric heater is 1000 watts and you use it for one hour, it will add 3410 btuh (british thermal units per hour) to the room.

If you ran the 100 watt television for an hour, it would add 341 btuh to the room.

As stated by DBSATX, there is no magic about any electric heater. Equal watts produces equal heat. Advertising does not change physics, as much as the writers would like to have you believe it does.

Not strictly true. Not all energy is heat. There is a whole lot more to the electromagnetic spectrum than just infrared. And physics tells us that the law of entropy always applies. You have to put more energy into any system than the usable energy you get out of it. The trick is to minimize entropic losses.

You are correct that the same amount of electricity that goes to the heating element will produce the same heat. But not all of the energy that goes into a heater necessarily goes to the heating element.

But I'll admit you caught me in a mistake. (Mark your calendar; I admitted it!) I was imprecise in referring to "waste heat" when I should have said "wasted energy."

[m.hony]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

The real "trick" is that intake air is passed by the heating element three times before being blown into the room, so there's less waste heat. If you have less waste heat, you use less energy to provide the same usable heat.

But other than the airflow inside the box, it's not a whole lot different from any other electric space heater.

Our washing machine bit the dust, so a trip to the appliance store-
While there I saw what appeared to be an EdenPURE, but was some other brand that costs half as much. I wonder if it is any good...

[m.hony]

The oil filled electric heaters are great because they are silent and won't catch anything on fire, but the lack of a fan causes it to cool a smaller area.
Regardless of how it works, some electric heaters are better than others because some have cabinets that are not hot to the touch- won't burn the kids or the cats- and will not catch blankets or curtains on fire and are less noisy.

[Luigi123]

We use the eden Pure, keeps the 30 ft around 67 through the night, the key is to get it started asap before temperature drops too low.

[Ron A]

Recently purchased a 2015 sport 16 ft. Checked the list of standard features and it says it has a LPG, smoke & carbon monoxide detector.


Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums

[idroba]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

Not strictly true. Not all energy is heat. There is a whole lot more to the electromagnetic spectrum than just infrared. And physics tells us that the law of entropy always applies. You have to put more energy into any system than the usable energy you get out of it. The trick is to minimize entropic losses.

You are correct that the same amount of electricity that goes to the heating element will produce the same heat. But not all of the energy that goes into a heater necessarily goes to the heating element.

But I'll admit you caught me in a mistake. (Mark your calendar; I admitted it!) I was imprecise in referring to "waste heat" when I should have said "wasted energy."

If all the energy which goes into an electric heater does not go into the heating element, where does it go? If there is a fan, some would go into it, but like the heating element, all of that energy is converted into heat, some in the motor heating up, some in the heat put into moving the air.

In an incandescent electric light, about 95% of the input energy (95 watts out of 100) are converted directly into heat, the other 5% is converted into light, and when that light hits objects in the room, it heats them up (very minutely, but it does) so that 5% is converted back into heat. So, ultimately all 100% of the watts put into the light come out into the room as heat.

Yes, in a mechanical system you must put more energy into a system than you get out of it, which is why there is no perpetual motion machines, but that is not the conversion of electrical energy into other forms of energy. It all comes out as heat, it all degrades to heat.

Dontcha just love it when engineers argue.....lol. It is all good fun, but the bottom line is that electric heaters with the same input watts have equal heat output. They are all 100% efficient in converting electrical energy into heat energy.

Some may make a human feel different, especially ones which emit more radiant energy, or ones which keep the temperature more even from floor to ceiling, but none produces more heat in btu's per watt.

And now we have drifted the OP's original question WAY off track. Sorry OP.

[cantdrv55]

No worries. I am learning a lot reading all your thoughts.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by cantdrv55

My brother-in-law, owner of an SOB, says I should not use the furnace as it runs on propane while we sleep due to possible carbon monoxide leaks. He says to buy a small electric heater. The AS has a propane leak detector but not yet a CO leak detector. Does anyone use a portable electric heater instead of their furnace?

The propane furnace is safe if it is installed and maintained properly. If more than a few years old it should be inspected every year or two and replaced if the heat exchanger is failing.

In general a portable electric heater won't provide enough heat in cold weather. They generally pose a higher risk of fire than a permanently installed furnace, and you can't run them without electricity.

Electric heaters powered by generators pose a serious CO risk from the generator.