If YOU were an A/S engineer

[R&SZinser]

Airstream (or Thor) should bring back the Argosy line as the test bed for new and upgraded technologies.
in addition to the upgrades for frame & rot-proof floors, I'd love to see an airstream made of Carbon Fiber. No more Dents, easily painted, strong and light weight.
I'm also at a loss why the industry doesn't allow access hatches to the holding tanks. You should be able to remove a section of floor and unscrew a leak-proof access hatch to facilitate cleaning of the holding tanks and fresh water tank.
Another innovation would be installed macerator pumps and modern drain hoses. (no more stinky-slinky).
Lastly, why not use radient heat in stead of a forced air furnace. The heater could be electric or propane.

Roy

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by argosy20

Mark, my trailer stands 9'10" tall, not counting the A/C unit. There are frame spars that go under the aluminum skin all the way across the roof, made of steel,

.

I thought those were alluminum. the only steel is in the chassis frame.

Originally Posted by argosy20

If steel and aluminum weigh the same per strength, why aren't modern airplanes made from steel? It is certainly cheaper than aluminum, and easier to work with.
Terry

I'm not an engineer, but I believe this is correct. There are other reasons to use alluminum than weight. corrosion is one.


thoughts on other issues: just how long are these things supposed to last? 30, 40, 50 years isn't enough? even with the old designs, if a trailer was well maintained, it has no set life-span. Same goes with other well-built machines. If you take care of it, it'll last forever. the difference between Airstream's and SOBs is that with the SOB's (allegedly), even if you DO take care of them, they won't last. But it seems to me that the restoration projects that we all read about here are the result of some PO that didn't tend to maintenance.

weight: "wood cabinets lend to higher weights". 60's trailers had all wood cabinets. why were they so light?

[j54mark]

Originally Posted by argosy20

There are frame spars that go under the aluminum skin all the way across the roof, made of steel, hence the "10 feet in the air" thing. If you think aluminum and steel weigh the same, on a strength for strength basis, pick up a piece of 2" channel aluminum, and a 2" piece of channel steel. The steel will weigh about 20% more. If steel and aluminum weigh the same per strength, why aren't modern airplanes made from steel? It is certainly cheaper than aluminum, and easier to work with.
Terry

I have not seen, nor run across steel framing anywhere above the floor. Interesting. Very interesting. Do you happen to know if this is an Argosy thing or if Airstreams have the same framing?

The strength is about the same on a pound for pound basis. The challenge you make is on a size for size basis. Your hypothetical 2" aluminum channel will be lighter, but not as stong in torsion as 2" steel channel if wall thickness is constant. It is worth noting in connection with frame construction that that same 2" steel channel will have a fatigue life exponentially greater. Where fatigue is an issue, engineers have to size up aluminum significantly.

Steel is not easier to work with in complex shapes such as may be needed in aircraft - aluminum is much more maleable. Aluminum also has one other advantage on a weight for weight, strength for strenth basis: the walls of an aluminum tube the same strength (and weight) of a steel tube will have thicker walls. You can make super light steel tubing, but the walls get too thin to weld, braze, or rivet. That is why you see butted tubing (thicker at the ends) on high end bicycles.

Mark

[thenewkid64]

Roger,

My 89 RR was a Range Rover, I cannot afford, nor would I want to own a Rolls Royce

I still miss that SUV , except at the pump. It got MPG's that are only a bit better than my MH

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by j54mark

I have not seen, nor run across steel framing anywhere above the floor. Interesting. Very interesting. Do you happen to know if this is an Argosy thing or if Airstreams have the same framing?

Mark

Mark, it may just be an Argosy thing, the ones I have messed with have been steel, in my Argosy. And they may have been replacements.
And I will only touch upon one other thing about steel vs aluminum, and then I will leave it alone. Why did they put single piece end caps on Argosy's, instead of the multiple piece caps on Airstreams, but the steel was easier to work with, and cheaper, but heavier?
Terry

[j54mark]

Originally Posted by argosy20

Why did they put single piece end caps on Argosy's, instead of the multiple piece caps on Airstreams...Terry

Which raises another interesting question: Why don't we ever hear about steel/aluminum corrosion from electrolysis on Argosy end caps?

Mark

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by j54mark

Which raises another interesting question: Why don't we ever hear about steel/aluminum corrosion from electrolysis on Argosy end caps?

Mark

Could be the galvanizing on the steel? I know there is a little on mine, but not enough to be a major problem, and that only after decades of being out in the weather. And it seems to be limited to the steel, but if the end caps blow off while driving down the road, I will know the problem was worse than it looked
Terry

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by chuck

.
weight: "wood cabinets lend to higher weights". 60's trailers had all wood cabinets. why were they so light?

I have noticed on my unit that it has particle board counters and shelving. Particle board is MUCH heavier than wood, even plywood, of the same thickness, but has the virtue of being much cheaper than real wood. If most of our trailers now have that, it would follw that it would weigh more.
Terry

[thenewkid64]

Originally Posted by j54mark

Which raises another interesting question: Why don't we ever hear about steel/aluminum corrosion from electrolysis on Argosy end caps?

Mark

But we do! The reason that almost all Argosy's have rust at the edges of the end caps is the electrolytic corrosion that occurs between the steel and the aluminum. The steel seems to lose the battle here. The corrosion is normally not enough to cause a catastrophic failure, but it can become unsightly.

[bredlo]

Originally Posted by R&SZinser

Airstream (or Thor) should bring back the Argosy line as the test bed for new and upgraded technologies.
in addition to the upgrades for frame & rot-proof floors, I'd love to see an airstream made of Carbon Fiber. No more Dents, easily painted, strong and light weight.
I'm also at a loss why the industry doesn't allow access hatches to the holding tanks. You should be able to remove a section of floor and unscrew a leak-proof access hatch to facilitate cleaning of the holding tanks and fresh water tank.
Another innovation would be installed macerator pumps and modern drain hoses. (no more stinky-slinky).
Lastly, why not use radient heat in stead of a forced air furnace. The heater could be electric or propane.

Roy

All wonderful points. A carbon fiber Airstream would be amazing, strength-wise and visually. Imagine that deep silvery gray with a high polish on it, the thin pinstripes of carbon filament running horizontally down the length of it, and perhaps moving the wheels as far out as possible, with flared wheel wells... that would look stunning rolling down the highway, as dynamic and strange as the old Hawley-Bolus's must've looked to someone in an old Model T back in the 30's.

The modern draining systems, new access panels to clean and maintain every inch of the trailer yourself, alternate heating (I'm going with radiant under-floor heat myself and ditching a space-hogging furnace) are all great ideas for Airstream to look into very seriously.

Airstream is a small company in a world of big SOB brands, and much like Apple vs. Microsoft, these small companies can turn on a dime, change direction and bring out fantastic new products much easier than the behemoths of the industry. The CCD only need be the beginning - while CCD is representative of a new interior "look," Jackson Center needs to innovate under the hood with better materials and new solutions to old problems. It doesn't mean they have to give up what makes 'em famous... remember, no changes - only improvements.

[Over59]

Great ideas for a redesign and customization. I'll use some of them for sure. How could baffles be retrofitted for fresh water tanks. I would think one of the custom tank places would make one with baffles on order. I would think baffles would reduce the strain on the tank and its' attachments if one moved the tank under the belly.

How about this. Combination grey fresh tank using a bladder for the fresh inside the grey. Save space, could have larger fresh tank. As you use the fresh water is just flows back to the other side of the tank.

Don't think I'll try that one. Leave to the professional tinkers.

I was talking to a metal guy at Electric Boat and he would use a Stainless Steel frame. Titanium is VERY expensive. Only the Gov can afford it.

[thenewkid64]

Originally Posted by R&SZinser

Airstream (or Thor) should bring back the Argosy line as the test bed for new and upgraded technologies.

I heard something at a rally this weekend form a WBCCI member that was one of the founders of the Argosy club. When the Argosy first came out they were not allowed in the WBCCI so they stared their own club. Anyhow he said that the reason that the Argosy product was discontinued was due to the fact that they were outselling the Airstream models of the time. This did not make Airstream happy, so they stopped production.

Fact or fiction, I don't know. He was there then.

I would think with all the lines that Thor owns that some of the innovations that are in their other products would find their way into the Airstreams. Maybe they do and we don't see it. It would be cool if they brought back the Argosy name as an entry level trailer that was at a price point comparable to most Box trailers, but not as nicely equipped as a full blown Airstream. Kinda like a Safari Lite Could be a test bed, and also would lend itself to trying radical new designs, or reviving old ones. I am really drawn to the rear door Argosy trailers. They have my curiosity peaked.

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by psychpw

How about this. Combination grey fresh tank using a bladder for the fresh inside the grey. Save space, could have larger fresh tank. As you use the fresh water is just flows back to the other side of the tank.

Don't think I'll try that one. Leave to the professional tinkers.

I was talking to a metal guy at Electric Boat and he would use a Stainless Steel frame. Titanium is VERY expensive. Only the Gov can afford it.

I don't think I would want a combination fresh/grey water tank, one little leak...
Another disadvantage to titanium, it is VERY heavy, although also very flexible.
A grey water tank behind the axle, or between the first two axles, would also be a good thing, weight distribution-wise. Again between the frame rails, and of course, the black tank bringing up the rear. I don't have the plumbing specs of the new ones here, they may already be doing this, but I think someone would have said so by now if they were.
Terry

[overlander63]

Originally Posted by thenewkid64

I heard something at a rally this weekend form a WBCCI member that was one of the founders of the Argosy club. When the Argosy first came out they were not allowed in the WBCCI so they stared their own club. Anyhow he said that the reason that the Argosy product was discontinued was due to the fact that they were outselling the Airstream models of the time. This did not make Airstream happy, so they stopped production.

Fact or fiction, I don't know. He was there then.

I would think with all the lines that Thor owns that some of the innovations that are in their other products would find their way into the Airstreams. Maybe they do and we don't see it. It would be cool if they brought back the Argosy name as an entry level trailer that was at a price point comparable to most Box trailers, but not as nicely equipped as a full blown Airstream. Kinda like a Safari Lite Could be a test bed, and also would lend itself to trying radical new designs, or reviving old ones. I am really drawn to the rear door Argosy trailers. They have my curiosity peaked.

My experience with other hobbies rears its ugly head here, why not revive Argosy as a limited-production, limited availability coach? Only build one for every four Airstreams built, or some number like that? That way, they would be guaranteed not to outsell Airstream, thay would have a low-cost alternative, and a test bed for future products, like, maybe, a hybrid unit, with a fold-out in the end for larger families that want an Airstream but have too many kids/not enough cash for the real thing. Sleeps six instead of four.
Terry

[Silvertwinkie]

I agree with the basic comments on this thread, but I do feel that even if an Argosy line were to show up again, I would say that it should keep the look an feel of an Airstream without making it into one of those psydo type pop ups.

I like the idea of the Argosy line as the entry level product, but given how they can barely keep up making Airstreams right now, I can't see it happening any time soon.

Eric

Having worked for Land Rover North America for anumber of years and actually built ( not restored) a Series 111 88" station Wagon from the ground up. I know what I would do as an airstream engineer. Land Rovers are built in a similar fashion to Airstreams. It's kind of a semi-production method.There might be a short wheel base soft top coming down the line followed by a long wheel based hard top in a different color, followed by something completely different. The were put together using a customer or dealer build order. There were literally hundreds of variations and options that could be specifed. There were no robots involved on the line, everything was assembled by hand.Up until about the late 80's early 90's there wre no robotics in the factory. When I built mine I did everything that I could think of to improve the build while remaining original.

1. galvanize the frame!!!

2. use another material besides plywood as the sub-floor. There are new decking materials that are pretty much impervious to water and rot.

3. stainless steel fasteners through out the body and frame.

4.someone else suggested baffels in the water tank. designed so that it would still drain properly.

5.belly panels that are removeable and easy to replace.

6.classic style windows on all models

7.better insulation.

8.barriers between metals of different types

9.eaiser access to wiring

10.NO particle board or contact paper with a wood design on cabinets. On even the least expensive models!

11.Up grades in cabinets , carpet, sheet goods, counter tops. plumbing fixtures.and lighting.

12. Better quality control

These are just a few things from someone who doesn't even own an Airstream yet. There are probably many many more from people who own or have owned a number of Airstreams over the years. Hope no one is offened by my suggestions as a non owner and newbe. There's always room for improvement for most eveything. Oh, one more thing: locktight on any fasteners that tend to vibrate loose.
Jack

[j54mark]

1. In the 25' Classic/Safari remove the stove/oven and use a 2 burner cooktop and convection over underneath. Use a single bowl 25" sink. Counter space! I did it, and it works.

2. I would be far more interested in a bedroom slide than a lounge area slide. I recognize there are weight and balance issues.

3. Front credenzas tend to be used almost exclusively for the tv, both to sit on and store. Take advantage of LCD screens to reduce the size of these large cabinets and open up floor space.

Mark

[nickcrowhurst]

Chuck said, above, " But it seems to me that the restoration projects that we all read about here are the result of some PO that didn't tend to maintenance. "

I wish this were confirmed by my experience, but I've been to a wreckers yard several times over the past 4 years and inspected the frames of about five wrecked Airstreams, where the wreck exposed the frame. There was serious structural corrosion of all the frames at the rear end. For ultimate longevity, maintenance of an Airstream should probably include regular removal of the belly pan, de-rusting and coating the frame, and spraying suitable fluid inside the box sections. Otherwise, they are being invisibly destroyed. Once every five years might be a good starting point. Normal maintenance would not prevent this, as the water is sprayed up from the road, and into the belly pan. Nick.

[robandzoe]

Gentlemen,

You are all making me very nervous about the frame issue. I had some rust that I dealt with up front, but now I'm curious to look at the rear too. I have an 85 Limited that came from Arizona. I'll let you all know.

Rob

[R&SZinser]

What about a new design of the hitch? A good engineer I'm sure could start from scratch and design something better than the Ball & Receiver set-up... Integrated weight distribution: No more drilling the frame or bolting on fastners? Multi-link anti-sway? My dual-cam Reese HD set up works great but I'm sure an integrated system would be superior to an add on.

The idea for engineered materials in lieu of the plywood floor is pure genius!

I would love to see a really efficient insulation package as standard. Cooler in Summer - Warmer in winter!