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Old 10-29-2004, 07:58 PM   #43
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did you factor in the difference in the cost of earle(17 qts) and a gasser(6) every 3500 miles?....hmmmm?..plus added intial cost of diesel mill...
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Old 10-29-2004, 08:03 PM   #44
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Norbert, I go 7500 miles per oil change. I get Delvac 1300 for $5.88 a gallon ($14.70) plus $5 for an oil filter equals $19.70 plus tax.
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Old 10-29-2004, 08:10 PM   #45
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well, i guess we have to agree to disagree...i dont have the option of changing my own oil....plus my arthuritus doesnt like for me to crawl on the ground, and i no longer dump my earle in the sewer either....
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Old 10-29-2004, 08:55 PM   #46
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I think most would agree that diesel can get better MPG and has more low end grunt. The bottom line as I see it is this, the upfront cost for the Duramax/Allison combo with a typical annual mileage of 12k per year would take you several years (more than 5 I think) to save enough better MPG which would translate into cost savings to offset the price of the upgrade in engine and trans. Of course the more miles you drive, the faster the payback happens. As diesel prices rise however, it will no doubt take far long for the return on investment...add the fact that the vehicle is depreciating each letter of this post I type (though will have a higher resale later depending on several factors-- one of which is the rebates which is starting to hurt resale).

This is not a bash on the gassers nor the diesels, but the facts are clear. You will loose either way you go, it just depends how fast. At the end of it's life, it's still a $35-$40k rust bucket and a sunk cost as they say in accounting.
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Old 10-30-2004, 01:42 AM   #47
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>>[QUOTE=Janet's Husband]A few observations:

1.) The price of fuel is increaseing.
2.) Fuel will probably not ever drop to pre-04 levels again.
3.) The transportation costs of of goods has not been completely passed on to the consumers as of yet, it will probably hit in the next 6 to 12 months.
4.) It is going to become very expensive to continue the Airstream dream, due to increased costs.
5.) Big trailers are more expensive to tow than small trailers.
6.) It is likely that a lot of people will be priced out of RV'ing.

Looks to me that if I want to keep going as long as possible, I will have to keep my smaller trailer, look for a more economical tow vehicle, and pick and chose where I can go.

Any thoughts on this?<<


Yes Gary, I think you are right on. World oil demand is very close to supply due to developing countries and growth in US demand (up 15% since 1990). Prices will continue to trend up and as they do, the market will begin to work it's magic, as long as no one messes with it. Behavior, in terms of vehicle choice and driving decisions, is already beginning to change, and will continue to do so. I expect over the next few years we will see significant improvements in fuel efficiency in vehicles and manufacturing, once people realize prices are not going back down. Energy intensity per $ of GDP will drop again like it did after the first oil shocks in the 70's and 80's. Which is a good thing IMHO. The technology exists, there just hasn't been much demand until now because of our relatively low cost of oil.

As far as the Airstream life goes - isn't great that we have such efficient towables? I do think we will see much more efficient tow vehicles introduced over the next few years, perhaps SUV's and lighter duty pickups with 2.8 to 4 liter diesels, and 5-6 spd autos which would be great for towing trailers in, say, the 5000 lb range, with good efficiency. Just look at the mileage the new Dodge/Benz van gets with the small turbodiesel - over 20mpg loaded. And there seems to be a lot of growth in the ultralight and hybrid trailer markets, as well as lighter, collapsible trailers like the Chalet, Hi-Lo, etc, that reduce wind drag. Might not want to fulltime in one but they're great for weekend use. It might help to look at what they do in Europe and other places with high fuel costs - usually you see smaller, but high quality.

As I see it, you're pretty much on target.

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Old 10-30-2004, 03:09 AM   #48
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Think about it.

All I am saying is to look at the near and far future.
Try and see what could happen given the current events and trends.
I have always liked to perform this type of exercise and some times it really pays off.
Times are changing.
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Old 10-30-2004, 08:15 AM   #49
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In regard to the question of staying with a smaller coach...let me say this from my direct exp.

Our fuel econonmy towing was the exact same towing a loaded 2003 19' Bambi as is currently is towing a loaded 2004 25' Safari "C" (a 1700lb increase).

I would guess that towing up to a 28' (non slide out might also be similar. I would expect that any larger or adding a slide out might effect economy, but frankly, those that I spoken with that have the newer larger units, with or without slide out are gettig the same 9-11mpg towing with a gasser and about 15mpg or less with a diesel. So even there, one can find a few holes in the smaller (coach) is logically better on fuel economy.

To me it would seem not to be the size, it's the motion of the ocean (fuel costs) that are the issue. Once you place that beast on the rear of a vehicle, MPG turns into a black hole pretty much no matter what to some degree.

Myself, I wouldn't take comfort in a smaller coach being a savior here. It's RVing in general that is at stake.
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Old 10-30-2004, 08:40 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie



To me it would seem not to be the size, it's the motion of the ocean .... that are the issue. Once you place that beast on the rear .... turns into a black hole pretty much no matter what to some degree.

Myself, I wouldn't take comfort in a smaller.... being a savior here.
my my...i think you could qualify as a book author....
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Old 10-30-2004, 09:16 AM   #51
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In the end, I there is no magic bullet. I bought the Duramax because I was able to get a $6000 rebate, plus GM employee discount at the end of the 2003 model year. Had those options not been available to me, I would have opted for an 8.1 L engine.

Last year and early this year diesel was up to 30 cents a gallon cheaper than regular gas, now it is 30 cents higher. But like I said, as long as diesel is less than a dollar a gallon, more than regular, you are saving SOME money over a gas engine.

I hope in the future we see more Biodiesel come into production. There is a LOT of idle farmland in this country that could be put BACK into production, producing oil seed crops. The American farmer is a very resourceful individual, that loves what he/she does very much. If the call came to start producing unlimited oil seed crops, and the government pulled out all the stops, we could thumb our noses at the middle east.
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Old 10-30-2004, 10:11 AM   #52
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Living in PA

Be glad that you don't live in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania's road tax (paid with every gallon of Gas/Diesel) is the highest in the country. It's currently 27 cents per gallon. I know this because my Dad owns his own tractor trailer and has to figure how much he owes each state he travels in every quarter. Right now I'm paying $2.39 a gallon for Diesel for my pick-up. My dad is currently paying $2.32 a gallon at the truck stop with his owner discount. Last year he switched from an over the road driver to hauling containers out of the local rail yards because he couldn't afford the over the road driving anymore. The cost of fuel is killing the owner operator!!! With fuel a constant rising force, coupled with a truck payment of close to $2k a month is certain death to the little guy.

I paid $1.50/gal for heating oil about a month ago. My brother just got the same thing from the same co. and paid $1.69/gal. They say that here in PA it will definately go to over $2 a gal.

Home heating oil is not the same as Diesel. Heating fuel is a high sulfur fuel that should not be used in an auto. Heating oil is very similar to OFF ROAD diesel used in heavy equipment, and reefers for trucks. Besides the fact that if you get caught with dyed fuel in your vehicle it is a $1300.00 fine here in PA.

My Dodge Ram 2500 quad-cab, 4X4, Cummins gets me around 13.5 mpg to and from work (10-11 miles one way). Driving it to Charleston, WV on mountainous routes 68 and 79, it gets me 17.7 mpg at an average speed of 75 mph. Towing my "new to me" AS home across the state it got 17.5 mpg at an average speed of 70 mph. Not too bad in my book. My best friend has a 1996 Chevy Silverado 3500 extended cab,4x4, longbed, with the 454. We were just comparing last night our respected fuel mileage. He told me that he has never seen anything better than 11.96 mpg out of his truck. I was astonished!

I can do my oil change for about $25. Thats 4 gallons of Valvoline oil (with the Cummins seal of approval) and the top of the line filter. Putting the used oil into the empty gallon containers and taking them to a friend to burn in his shop furnace. Or you can take used motor oil to most any parts shop, they send it out to be recycled.

Just like Janet's Husband, My $.02.
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Old 10-30-2004, 10:41 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick
.

I hope in the future we see more Biodiesel come into production. There is a LOT of idle farmland in this country that could be put BACK into production, producing oil seed crops. The American farmer is a very resourceful individual, that loves what he/she does very much. If the call came to start producing unlimited oil seed crops, and the government pulled out all the stops, we could thumb our noses at the middle east.
pick, i applaud your enthusiasm, but find it a little unrealistic. here in chicagoland, i know of only one station offering diodiesel in bensenville... i think it was a mix (like ethanol gas)...several years ago, when fuel was cheap , it was about25 to 35 cents more a gallon... i belong to the illiinois farm bureau, and would support the farmers, but not at tht price...
norby
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The only true nobility is found through giving good food to your friends- Anton Careme

beauty is in the eye of the beerholder-cosmo fishhawk

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Old 10-30-2004, 11:55 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
In regard to the question of staying with a smaller coach...let me say this from my direct exp.

Our fuel econonmy towing was the exact same towing a loaded 2003 19' Bambi as is currently is towing a loaded 2004 25' Safari "C" (a 1700lb increase).

I would guess that towing up to a 28' (non slide out might also be similar. I would expect that any larger or adding a slide out might effect economy, but frankly, those that I spoken with that have the newer larger units, with or without slide out are gettig the same 9-11mpg towing with a gasser and about 15mpg or less with a diesel. So even there, one can find a few holes in the smaller (coach) is logically better on fuel economy.

To me it would seem not to be the size, it's the motion of the ocean (fuel costs) that are the issue. Once you place that beast on the rear of a vehicle, MPG turns into a black hole pretty much no matter what to some degree.

Myself, I wouldn't take comfort in a smaller coach being a savior here. It's RVing in general that is at stake.
On the flats it is all about wind drag, so frontal area is critical and length doesn't matter much. In the mountains it is all about weight, and it matters a lot.
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Old 10-30-2004, 12:02 PM   #55
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[QUOTE=Silvertwinkie]would take you several years (more than 5 I think) to save enough better MPG which would translate into cost savings to offset the price of the upgrade in engine and trans.


When we ran the cost figures on diesel vs gas, we did it at a time when diesel was about ten cents a gallon lower......
The pay back time was a little over 8 years!
It would take theat long to off set the original cost of investment for a diesel... and that was why we stuck with a gasser!
And, oh? That cost factor was predicated on more than 20k per year!
We also included higher maintance costs, and higher repair costs, etc.
We just couldn't justify the diesel.
Yeah, the man of the family would kill to have one. He just doesn't like paying for it! LOL!!

Elizabeth in Iowa
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Old 10-30-2004, 01:34 PM   #56
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You guys are missings something here - diesels are cool - so when you factor in the cost you have to factor in the cost of coolness - its a guy thing - its important to be cool

Ken - who isn't as cool because I have gas..........
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