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Old 04-02-2012, 08:32 PM   #121
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We've discussed this before on the forum. When high end boats have service problems its usually with gear supplied by outside suppliers, ie, airconditioning, gen sets, pumps, etc. A Catalina sailboat worth 200k will have much the same gear as a 700k Alden or Hinckley. The real difference between boats is the care taken when they are built. I fully expect that a crappy fridge will be a crappy fridge, but loose rivets, sliding doors that untrack with a touch are a huge turn off. A friend of mine has a 45 year old Hinckley Bermuda 40 that has had the crap kicked out of it doing offshore racing over the years. The drawers still work perfectly, the cabin doors latch, its still water tight and the original plumbing works like new. We rented a 5 year old DWR Bambi, the shower leaked, the door lock was an ongoing problem, the tank gauges didn't work and the thermostat didn't either. I'm still buying an AS but with the understanding I'm going to have to do a bunch of things that weren't done right when it was built.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:52 PM   #122
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We've discussed this before on the forum. When high end boats have service problems its usually with gear supplied by outside suppliers, ie, airconditioning, gen sets, pumps, etc. A Catalina sailboat worth 200k will have much the same gear as a 700k Alden or Hinckley. The real difference between boats is the care taken when they are built. I fully expect that a crappy fridge will be a crappy fridge, but loose rivets, sliding doors that untrack with a touch are a huge turn off. A friend of mine has a 45 year old Hinckley Bermuda 40 that has had the crap kicked out of it doing offshore racing over the years. The drawers still work perfectly, the cabin doors latch, its still water tight and the original plumbing works like new. We rented a 5 year old DWR Bambi, the shower leaked, the door lock was an ongoing problem, the tank gauges didn't work and the thermostat didn't either. I'm still buying an AS but with the understanding I'm going to have to do a bunch of things that weren't done right when it was built.
I'm going to disagree with some of this.
First of all the equipment list on your "average" Hinckley would cost more than the entire Catalina of a similar size. There is no comparing the two boats! One is built to a price the other is made with a "money is no object" agenda. The B-40 you referenced is a "Tank" of a sailboat. Heavy and overbuilt as boats were when it was designed (1960?). Finally your "average" Hinckley gets service that most other boats never see. Believe me when I tell you that the attrition rate on any sailboat part or system is far greater than what the"average"Airstream sees. Maintenance is the biggest factor in determining reliability. Stuff breaks, fails, ages, falls apart, goes bad, weathers and just plain wears out. Fix it and move on...Take care of it and it will reward you with good service.
I am not making excuses for Airstream's failures. I just know that no matter what the item,be it boat or car or trailer, I will find things wrong that need attention. I've repaired a few items in our new Serenity that just should not have been.... Just another day doing what I do best!
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:00 PM   #123
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Bruce,

We're on the same page, Hinckleys and other high end boats are built to last, but Lewmar winches are used on both, Jabsco pumps, etc. The build and quality of the build are what sets the high end boats apart from the built to price boats. Maybe I didn't say it as well as I should have, but when you have 16 foot trailers with much the same equipment from outside suppliers with a 30,000 dollar price differential where should the extra money be spent? Yes the aluminum is more expensive, but should AS spend more time on quality control, better and more functional design? They really should.

BTW, You can get Hinckley to build you a new B 40, pretty much new below the water line, lots of carbon fiber, modern rig. Its lighter, faster and still a pretty boat.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:35 PM   #124
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I can't imagine comparing a Wanderlodge with an Airstream. Moho's are by definition money pits, but moho's built on commercial chassis -- while wonderful -- are the literal definition of more money per mile. Age has killed whatever virtues they once had. I'd love a 1986 PT-36 . . . but I could buy several A/S trailers (brand new) for what it would take to make that coach new again. The telling thing about one of those is what the current owners are willing to live with in terms of what doesn't work any more. And never will again for the labor, the complexity and the sheer cussedness of the thing.

And on a per square foot basis -- weight as the factor -- a Wanderlodge (never mind, I'm going to stop right here).

As to A/S build quality, it's simple. The number of Americans who can afford to buy a travel trailer that (as things once were) cost nearly as much as the average house has shrunk drastically in the past 30-years. They already have too much debt, on average. Prices, therefore, have to be kept low. And with no competition, this means that cheap non-union labor is a given. Hire and fire. Please don't swoon over how wonderful the factory is or the number of long term employees, etc, that some think will change this. It won't.

This said, anyone who's been around the block with RV's knows that an A/S is a better long term buy than another current brand. While not as good as what we might like, it is a veritable step up out of the shcitz passed off as an "RV" in the main.

It's easier to understand that new or used there are no unsolved problems (three solutions per problem on average), and that service is the bear whether of an authorized dealer, the factory or a generic technician. In this it is no different than any other mobile living quarters.

Its virtue is that it can be towed by the family vehicle. No special TV needed (given only modest prudence). The SOB's all seem to need a larger, inefficient and (due to what they tow) fast-wearing TV. An enormous jump in family expenses for the several-times-yearly vacationer.

An SOB is disposable (ten year life), it requires a more expensive TV (short & long term), and is never free of serious deficiencies.

Over a 25-yr use span, one can easily say: One Airstream and two tow vehicles. Do it right and it's cheaper. With better on-road performance (safety), better living design accommodations and a large long term dedicated group of owner-to-owner support.

Carping about the rest is for those who can't see the forest for the trees.

You want a Hinckley? Go to TTT and order up an A/S shell and have your bespoke trailer built. It'll probably run about what a new Silver Streak with modern goodies would go for: $150k give or take. I'm sure they'll do the deal you want, higher or lower.

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Old 04-03-2012, 08:09 AM   #125
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Regardless of the QC problems with Airstreams, the cool factor carries the day with many of us. And as David said, a lot of us spend a lot of time tinkering and improving. In fact, the Forum is in part, a large part I think, a restoration Forum, so this venue attracts people who fix things. I finished remodeling my house (mostly, you never finish fixing a house either), so now I focus on the Airstream.

Rednax explains the economics of QC. If Airstream made trailers the way I want them to, they would cost more, more than I would pay. I am paying some of it over time by improving and individualizing. Some of the problems are components and we have been fortunate that those are not usually the things that break. Design may be an issue—the oven, for ex., is very difficult to light, but it can be lit.

There is also the cost cutting that doesn't save much money and costs more in the long run because of reputation. I also believe Airstream makes a big profit and that is more important to the company than long term reputation.

But, once you start looking at them, it is hard not to buy one. The company relies on this, to a larger degree than is practical in the long run. We still buy 'em, but a fair number of people see threads on QC and don't buy them. Maybe it is better that way because they would, if they had bought one, complain even louder and hurt the company reputation even more. So in a strange way these threads about Airstream quality may actually help the company.

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Old 04-03-2012, 09:10 AM   #126
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One coach that has my attention is a Bluebird Wanderlodge, late 80's to early 90's. If one believes only what is discussed on their forum, everyone spends at least as much time fixing their coaches as they do traveling.

I suspect that 'Bird owners, like Airstream owners, tend to be more involved in caring for their own coaches rather than paying someone else to do all of the work. I'm comfortable with that. In fact, I enjoy tinkering. I also know my limits, and when it is going to be cheaper to let someone who knows what they are doing work on it.
David:

Like you we are also planning on eventually going fulltiming. Our choice is also between a bus (Bluebird Wanderlodge) and an Airstream. A Bluebird in the years you are talking will cost from $30,000 to about $80,000. See Blue Bird Wanderlodge and Motor Coach Brokering Service and http://www.birdconnection.com/showroom/view_all.php.

These have the older engine Detroits 8V92. I would consider units with the Detroit Series 60 engine but these cost a lot more. These start with 1996 models and newer.

Keep in mind that when reading the Bluebird forum most of the posters are posting because they are dealing with a mechanical issue that they are trying to resolve. I believe this to be the case for most motorhome forums.

If I buy a Bluebird Wanderlodge I am planning on $3,000 to $5,000 per year for maintenace. (Tires should be replaced every 5 to 7 years and will run abaout $5,000 to $6,000 to replace all on a Wanderlodge.) I am aware of an Escapees fulltimer who had an older Wanderlodge (circa 1988) and had to replace the engine - cost $25,000. Fuel costs are also higher since they get about 5 to 6 miles per gallon. I get 12 to 14 miles per gallon pulling the Airstream 34.

The Airstream and Bluebird are not in the same class when considering it for fulltiming. The Bluebird has a lot more interior and storage space. The internal systems in a bus are much more robust. The Bluebird will be better insulated. Many will have a washer / dryer. The interior of the Wanederlodge (newer models) feel more like a home. The normal maintenance required for the Bluebird is much much higher.

The Airstream is much simpler. The other advantage of the Airstream is the extensive Airstream community - Air Forums, WBCCI, TAC, Airstream only parks, rallies, etc.

My wife would prefer that we fulltime in our Airstream 34 rather than any bus. Although I am enamored with the idea of fulltiming in a bus we will probably fulltime in our Airstream 34 because I don't want to spend the time or money required to maintain a bus to keeping it running well. We will modify our 34 to have 50 amp with a second airconditioner in our bedroom and I will add a Little Cod wood burning stove for supplemental heat ( "LC" Stove Info.). This is my answer to a bus having an Acqua Hot system. Actually the stove is easier as the Acqua Hot systems also require annual maintenance to work properly.

When choosing a RV for fulltiming there is a lot to consider. I would first choose the type of RV you want to fulltime in (motorhome, 5th wheel, trailer). Once that decision is made then choose the brand that best meets your requirements. Also the length of time you are planning on fulltiming plays into the decision. If you are only planning on fulltiming for 1 to 2 years then the decision isn't so critical. If, like us, you are planning on fulltiming for a long period of time 5 to 10 years or more, then the importance of getting it right the first time is critical.

It can be summed up that the Airstream would be a newer RV that will be much simpler to maintain versus an older Bluebird that is a very complicated machine and expensive to maintain.

Actually, by writing this response it is clear that our choice is the Airstream 34. It's probably time that I change our sceen name form Bluebird to something else.

It's fun to do the research; good luck in your final decision.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:35 AM   #127
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Tuning Up my Airstream

When you purchase an Airstream, new, you do expect things to work for awhile before needing replacement or repairs. But if you note the components within an Airstream, they are pretty much like the other trailers being manufactured. Arctic Fox was the next best trailer looked over from end to end at a RV and Trailer show in the Denver, Colorado area.

After two years and one trip to Jackson Center, Ohio to get our problem check list worked over... we are happy and content. It just took a bit of time to work around inexpensive hardware and hinges to actually feel confident the trailer was going to hold up.

I do believe that Airstream could use better hardware. Some options of major components are standard trailer options for everyone, so it is the frame and shell that you are purchasing. I am mechanically inclined, so can take on most projects myself. Like a boat, you need a tool box and be able to do your own maintenance, or the costs will discourage those having to do repairs with the "check book".

I am now content with our AS. It took some soul searching to figure out why cheap plastic components were being used (do not give me the "weight" savings blather) but it is to make a profit upon the sale. I ended up paying for my own upgrades out of pocket and my labor. Now I would be very resistant to purchase a new AS, as my 2006 is built to OUR standards and it is not the big items that bring the grief, but the little items. Plumbing fixtures, plastic tail light frames, fabrics for couches, linoleum, screws that fall out, hinges on cabinets... that drive one crazy. But after two years of tweaking the trailer... our problems are few and far between. My AS might weigh four pounds more than the original component hardware, but it works and have not failed since the installations.

CrawfordGene is being honest about his experiences. It is not "bashing the AS". Eventually you will upgrade the components that are problems and yours will be road worthy for years to come. It is just the anguish of paying through the telescopic steering orifice and your entire sink faucet weighs less than the gaskets used to keep it from leaking... not really, but it was so cheap that if fell apart within the first year. The shower plumbing came loose the first trip and fell between the shower stall and interior wall. But... not after I took five hours to figure out how to fix it to my standards at a parking lot in western Wyoming next to a hardware store. No problem since.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:46 AM   #128
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I ended up paying for my own upgrades out of pocket and my labor. Now I would be very resistant to purchase a new AS, as my 2006 is built to OUR standards and it is not the big items that bring the grief, but the little items. Plumbing fixtures, plastic tail light frames, fabrics for couches, linoleum, screws that fall out, hinges on cabinets... that drive one crazy. But after two years of tweaking the trailer... our problems are few and far between. My AS might weigh four pounds more than the original component hardware, but it works and have not failed since the installations.
Ray, since I'm thinking of buying a similar used trailer to yours, I'd love to see a list of your upgrades. Seems to be a common trend of experienced Airstream ownership - upgrade and complete the job the factory almost finished...

Thanks
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:24 AM   #129
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CrawfordGene is being honest about his experiences. It is not "bashing the AS".
By definition, as long as you're talking about your own Airstream, no matter what bad things you might say, you're not "bashing" it. After all, if you still own it, and plan to keep it, you obviously don't hate it, no matter what's wrong with it.

It doesn't become bashing until you start talking smack about someone else's RV. CrawfordGene can tell the whole world what's wrong with his Airstream, without bashing it. If he started smack-talking about all Airstreams (including mine) then he'd be bashing.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:36 AM   #130
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One can do both. It isn't exclusive by any means that problems on one trailer are not problems on all. One simply defines "problems": a cheap stove? Or wood cabinets built with staples and not screws? Only one of these is directly the fault of A/S. The other may be a matter of preference alone.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:18 PM   #131
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I've never seen Protagonist's Interstate, but I've seen others and I suppose I could find design issues with all of them or cheap parts or whatever. The last one I was in was quite nice. Because we are not used to it, it sure felt small.

Some of the information we pass on is about what we have seen posted on the Forum. If 10 people post that in some Airstreams the water pump is installed in a way you can't get to the filter, it buried amongst other things and it is noisy because they don't put a rubber mat underneath it, I guess it is easy to conclude a bad design (ours was like that and that design has been used for decades).

But "bashing" is often in the observer's eye. The first definition is physical—a beating, violent act. From that comes a 2nd or 3rd meaning, crushing your opposition. By either definition, I don't think that has happened on the Forum.

Those of us with lots of problems have been disappointed, frustrated, critical and angry in varying degrees. The first time a bunch of problems come close together, the new owner, at first gaga in love with his or her new toy, suffers a big downer and is most vulnerable and crazed at that point. A bad dealer makes it even worse; then we feel screwed by a company without any morals. But even then, people are not "bashing", but they are angry and disappointed; they feel ripped off. Most of us keep them though some of us wondered at times whether that was a good idea. A vacation should be enjoyable, not a constant wait for another problem and another….

Other people have few or no problems. Some have more, but are willing to excuse them. An even smaller group defines "bashing" more loosely and seem to think nothing should be said—the "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say it" school of thought. Maybe they don't want their bubble burst, but for many reasons people have different tolerances for criticism.

By the strictest view, everything is an opinion and no fact is certain. I may be insane and my keepers gave me this computer to keep me from punching out people. I may not even have an Airstream. But we have to judge whether people are insane, neurotic or too critical or not critical enough. Forums will never be all that obedient and what is a fact, is flexible. All we can do is make judgments over what are facts, what may be true, who seems more rational, not always easy things to do. It is probably best to ignore the crazy posts and move on. Completely wrong advice should be countered. Do it in a nice way if you can, but be aware that to some people any questioning of their beliefs is war to them. I am still learning how to do this and I think most of us are—Forums are new to everyone, even after 10 or more years and the rules evolve.

I must go and talk to my space alien friends now and be fed by my keeper.

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Old 04-03-2012, 12:18 PM   #132
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As a new used AS owner I must say that it is obvious that Airstreams are far from perfect. I considered other brands but I did not see better options. I was told to look at Galileo and the Evergreen element. I did. They were nice but untested and not that much different in price overall. Then there were other factors like the gentleman from a major rv brand telling me to avoid rubber-based roofs. I have since learned that is a very real concern at least in FL. TPO rubber is still rubber with some added bonuses EPDM rubber. In my climate, I have been told and shown that the roofs last about 10 years max. just for fun I priced a ballpark price on a roof replacement and was given a round about figure based on a 28 foot motor home at $4500. Another concern was parts availability. These are concerns that led me to Airstream. The larger used market was great. The other makes are new and their future unknown. Airstream, to me, was a logical conclusion.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:14 PM   #133
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Airstreams, like people, are not perfect and maybe that is why so many of us love ours. My wife thinks we save our 73 Overlander from a sad, sedentary life of over 20 years and gave her a new lease on life and possibly the two of us as well. Maybe it is our reflection in the aluminum, but we think we have developed a two-way relationship with our Airstream. After replacing the drapes, flooring, matresses, tambour doors, heating, AC, vents, entertainment systems, refrigerator, hot water heater, toilet, axels, wheels, tires, adding a gray tank, stripping silver paint off the outside, polishing, replacing or repairing panels, etc and then traveling to exciting places it becomes a relationship. And, sometimes we get upset with our relationships.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:01 PM   #134
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One of the criteria that I've been using to help us "weed" our list of "possibles" to a reasonable number is the owners' forum. I'm looking for one that is fairly active and includes information on how to do various repairs and upgrades. Obviously, certain problems will come up more frequently than others, depending on coach, and that just tells me what to be especially careful of.

Does reporting a problem, or asking for advice, constitute "bashing?" I don't think so. I suppose that comments about the factory quality assurance/control issues might be considered "bashing," or maybe it is just someone reporting the the facts of modern life.

When we toured the factory last summer we were impressed with the shower that each coach gets before anything goes inside. Obviously, none of the coaches have any leak problems at that point, yet I read that leaks are a problem. Perhaps the factory ought to take each finished coach out for a 100-mile road test and then spray it again. That might find some leaks, but it would add to the final cost.

Whatever coach we buy will be a used one, and I expect that there will be items that need repair or upgrading. We are budgeting for that. One might hope that a brand-new coach would have very few problems right away, but as long as humans are designing and building things, there will always be some problems.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:01 PM   #135
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I've not read every post, but I agree with the general consensus. Airstreams are a quality RV. Are thy perfect? No! Previously we owned a sailboat, a Shannon 38' ketch, recognized as one of the finest world cruising boats built. Yet, we found the need to spend considerable effort to correct unforeseen problems in order to make her perfect in our minds.

Like our Shannon, our Airstream represents a style, grace and quality of construction that speaks to our sensibilities. Both the RV and the boat attract admirors that allow us to make acquaintances and in some instances friends. I don't think we would be approached by so many 'strangers if we had not have had our Shannon or our Airstream.

See our blog at http://www.tinwheel.blogsplot.com

Drive on, be safe, be happy.

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Old 04-03-2012, 08:34 PM   #136
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Interesting Thread

My coach is a '99 we bought used, and so far, NOTHING has failed on it, over the course of five years and several tens of thousands of miles. I have replaced / upgraded several systems and done the "normal" maintenance, but by choice, not need.

I maintain my motor vehicles like a fanatic, but "stuff" still fails on them all the time ... alternators die, water pumps develop leaks, transmissions give up the ghost, etc.

Same with my "new" house ... the roof needs to be replaced every so often, the dishwasher dies, the sump pump won't any more ...

And remarkably, we don't go crazy over such failures with other items we own, so long as the time to failure is reasonably close to our expected mean time between failures and we're not too many standard deviations on the short end of the stick.

So I consider the Airstream to be a cut above most of the "things" I own - entropy being what it is, they all deteriorate and have to be fixed up every so often, and that's just life. But we should expect, and Airstream should deliver, a product that doesn't need a thing the day it is delivered, and sometimes that is not the case. That's simply wrong. But compared to other ownership experiences, I'm sold on the overall quality, and my little trailer just keeps on rolling along.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:41 PM   #137
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I think (for myself anyway), that an Airstream owner has a certain pursuit of perfection that drives them to fix every little thing on their Airstream. Partially because it is expensive, and you want to maintain it... but partially because that is why you bought it in the first place. It's 1/2 trailer, 1/2 art. I wish the factory workers would see it the same way...
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:06 PM   #138
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I think it is that we don't consider them disposable that drives us to keep them as close to new as possible. When that is made difficult by factory practice it's when the cursing starts (nothing the automakers haven't also heard from owners). An SOB owner just trades for another one.
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:02 PM   #139
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You think you have problems, try owning a Class A Airstream after reading the constant bashing and outright disrespect from your fellow AIRSTREAM FAMILY.

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After reading a thread where the OP was very disappointed in his unit, I'm not so depressed that I need to phone the suicide hotline, but it's....it's.....upsetting."
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Granted, I am still quite ignorant about this Airstream thing, but I am not stupid.
I suppose the naysayers or "realists" could say "caveat emptor" and "You're an idiot for not doing your homework," but I do not think I deserve that. I worked hard, was careful with my finances, and after so many years, was able to finally buy something new and shiny.
Maybe it's upsetting because I grew up poor and it seemed everyone else could afford something "new and shiny."
Or maybe it's because I bought my unit as the ultimate "escape" and any criticisms are viewed as a dead end along that path.
Oh dear.
Is the psychologist in?
p.s. Sorry for posting so many threads; I guess it's all part of that initial enthusiasm.
I will try to restrain myself now.
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:16 PM   #140
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Awh, sorry bout that Massyfarm if I bashed you. I like your giant looking bus thingy! Tobe honest, this last weekend I stopped in at Camping World and they were having a big sale with a swarm of people. I confess, I looked at a used Georgie Boy 34' really beautiful class A that would make a perfect full time home. It had an office in the bedroom- desk and all and real wood everywhere. The paneled glass door and glass pane half wall to the bedroom was classy. So there, I looked at a bus type too. You just have more money than me!
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