Adios Airstream

[SilverRanger]

Welcome to the forums, StokerDoc. Congratulations on your Airstream. You're buying, what I still consider to be, the best travel trailer on the market, and are getting some great advice on this thread. It looks like you've done your research, and are prepared for ownership. We've had ours for seven years now, have traveled extensively all over the US and Canada, and there are no leaks in the shell. You're going to have a blast.

[Naper]

Stoker I know what you are going through. I found the forum before we took delivery of our Classic last May. After 1 year of use we have had very little problems.

[danlehosky]

Dave , He's listening, or at least aware. But listening without contributing is completely useless.

While this thread has somewhat deviated,I still think the intent is being met.

It's hard for AS management to participate on these threads without becoming defensive or structuring the conversation in a way that all meaningful dialogue is stifled. The last reply I saw from Mr Wheeler told me that he is pretty thin skinned. Not a good quality in a CEO. I don't think he heard the message only the tone. This is an interesting thread, and seriously both the good and the bad have been discussed here. If I were CEO I would be tempted to jump in and participate in a freeform basis.Take your lumps and bask in your praise. There are some very good relevant comments here,........Mr. Wheeler?

Dan

[Gene]

Originally Posted by danlehosky

It's hard for AS management to participate on these threads without becoming defensive or structuring the conversation in a way that all meaningful dialogue is stifled. The last reply I saw from Mr Wheeler told me that he is pretty thin skinned. Not a good quality in a CEO. I don't think he heard the message only the tone. This is an interesting thread, and seriously both the good and the bad have been discussed here. If I were CEO I would be tempted to jump in and participate in a freeform basis.Take your lumps and bask in your praise. There are some very good relevant comments here,........Mr. Wheeler?

Dan

It is hard to know how to participate here, and most corporations prefer to paper everything over and pretend a lot. But having given Wheeler a pretty hard time for well over an hour, I don't think he is so thin skinned. I think execs just don't know how to deal with a Forum like this and don't want to spend the time, and it takes a lot of time. They don't teach this in business schools, or at least, didn't until recently.

Also, this is pretty chaotic, and execs don't like uncertainty and do like to be in control.

Airstream has a conflicted relationship with the Forum. They know it is here and that it has some influence. Some watch it and on occasion respond either openly or with secret names. I am sure some at Thor wish it would go away. The few attempts at engagement were quickly stopped. It is just not in their DNA. It would be a good thing to engage, and it appears they do at Alumapalooza, but it will take time for someone to point out the benefits and sell it to the bosses at Thor. No matter how much independence the divisions of Thor have, it will have to come from Thor, maybe when they see how many sales they lose by not engaging.

A while back and on another thread Bob Cross posted that it seems Airstream speaks through Airstream Life now. Could be. At one time it was the WBCCI, but that ended quite a while back. AL just isn't going to have much in its pages about poor QC, old designs, workmanship, etc.

Gene

[danlehosky]

Gene, I agree somewhat. My business school classes could have never invisioned the access to communication we have today. But, they did teach us to respond to customer needs and how to support and nuture a strong relationship with the people we dealt with, but mostly we were hammered with profit, profit and more profit. I think this is typical. My middle son just finished up an MBA and thats pretty much what he got out of it. That and about 60,000 in student debt. He's also finding out a freshly minted MBA is not worth much these days.

Whats really bothering me is the nondisclosure agreement that a customer was forced to sign.. Product service should be much more transparent than this. This really makes me question how THOR thinks and operates. I think resolving a significant problem for a customer could have been an opportunity for some good PR. I don't know any of the details and never will so this is speculation on my part. It makes me think I'll need a secret handshake the next time I go to the dealer for service.

I only had a handful of customers to satisfy at any one time and I mostly just did design, so maybe what they are doing is enough. Things are working for me. I still think Wheeler has a thin skin after reading his reply on this Forum to some complaints. You would know better though after meeting him personally

Maybe they view this Forum as a collection of malcontents who have an unlimited opportunity to bash. Sometimes this does happen. There's a lot of good discussion as well. I'd like to see more open communication but having thousands of customers may make this impossible. I understand that as well.

This does take a lot of time. I'ts interesting though. I've always liked the arena of functional confrontation. I've never had much luck with my wife as she is a much better negotiator than me. But mostly it works well with others.

Again, why am I sitting here in the shadow of Mt Rainier on a beautiful Sunday night writing this stuff. The sun is setting now and the snow on the mountain turns pink on nights like this and it's beautiful. I'm done.

Dan

[Lily&Me]

Originally Posted by danlehosky

Again, why am I sitting here in the shadow of Mt Rainier on a beautiful Sunday night writing this stuff. The sun is setting now and the snow on the mountain turns pink on nights like this and it's beautiful. I'm done. Dan

Because sometimes we regular posters get a little obsessed with these forums.

It's like a virtual campfire or rally gathering, just at your fingertips rather than with your mouth.


Maggie

[Mojave]

Originally Posted by StokerDoc

As I think back, it is odd that I didn't clue in to the fact that the owners used this trailer for at least a week, but never bothered to remove the plastic from the mattress?

Paul & Lisa, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. I hope you are able to continue to enjoy this beautiful island we share. If things go well, you will see a Tundra next to an Airstream sitting near your beach, please drop by. Hopefully hearing some good stories about these trailers will put a smile back on your face.

Stephen

The mattress had to be replaced because of the water damage, but it's interesting they were never honest to potential buyers.

Say hi while you're in Tofino! If you ask for Lisa and Paul anywhere in town you'll find us

All the best!

[Mojave]

Originally Posted by Fly at Night

Kudos to Mojave for their "Good-bye" post. Fourteen pages of reply and counting. There's nothing quite like a dramatic exit!

Haha! Go big or go home seems to be a bit of a trend in this little journey of ours

[Air Apparent]

Maybe Airstream should be asking WWWD!

[masseyfarm]

Bluebird --- You have to decipher these things of those of us not into texting.
I presume WWWD means "What Would Wally Do"? and I think that is a good question.

Dave

Originally Posted by Bluebird

Maybe Airstream should be asking WWWD!

[susans69]

Unfortunately, almost anything built after 2000 is poor quality. That is why I have purchased an older model and am upgrading and rebuilding it myself. With a whole lot of help from this wonderful forum and the people who participate. Good luck in your future purchase.

[danlehosky]

Originally Posted by susans69

Unfortunately, almost anything built after 2000 is poor quality. That is why I have purchased an older model and am upgrading and rebuilding it myself. With a whole lot of help from this wonderful forum and the people who participate. Good luck in your future purchase.

Weli Susan, as we are holding AS to the fire in this thread. Now it's your turn.
Where do you get your information? Can you substantiate those statements with facts? If thats your opinion thats OK. I think some good innovation has come about sinse 2000.How did you pick 2000 as a year that poor quality started? Can you back this statement up statistically? Have you done any surveys? I'm mostly just kidding here, just curious if you had a bad experience with a newer trailer and are basing this statement on that.

Dan

[Gene]

Dan, Wheeler may do better in one on one discussions than on a Forum. I agree he seemed defensive on the Forum, but the urge when you feel attacked is to explain yourself. The key to that is to actually explain yourself in a way people believe you. When they are disposed not to believe you before you make an entrance, it is a very hard climb.

My problem with the way Airstream handled the "town hall" thread was not their awkwardness—this is new stuff and everyone is learning how to do it—but that they gave up so fast. It was as if they were in shock and wanted to go pull the covers up over their heads so it would go away. When I talked to him, before the town hall debacle, I encouraged him to engage on the Forum, so if he remembers me at all, it is probably with suspicion, at the least.

I hope we get back to Vancouver Is. someday. The ferry is too expensive and that makes us hesitant. But we would certainly go back to Tofino and maybe we would find Paul and Lisa.

Gene

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Dan, Wheeler may do better in one on one discussions than on a Forum. I agree he seemed defensive on the Forum, but the urge when you feel attacked is to explain yourself. The key to that is to actually explain yourself in a way people believe you. When they are disposed not to believe you before you make an entrance, it is a very hard climb.

My problem with the way Airstream handled the "town hall" thread was not their awkwardness—this is new stuff and everyone is learning how to do it—but that they gave up so fast. It was as if they were in shock and wanted to go pull the covers up over their heads so it would go away. When I talked to him, before the town hall debacle, I encouraged him to engage on the Forum, so if he remembers me at all, it is probably with suspicion, at the least.

I hope we get back to Vancouver Is. someday. The ferry is too expensive and that makes us hesitant. But we would certainly go back to Tofino and maybe we would find Paul and Lisa.

Gene

Few daze ago I spent some refresh time back on the THT, didn't take real notice at the time, but it struck me as a little puzzling now on how abruptly it was terminated and that it was the site owner who closed the thread.
There were other very active QC threads at the time but the TH was the only one started by AS and the only one they were directly involved in.

Bob

[danlehosky]

Gene, the ferry from Port Angeles to Vancouver Island is run by the BlacK Ball Ferry Co. It's a private company that used to control most of the ferry service in and around the Puget Sound until the State took it over. When my Mom and Dad were growing up small "Misquito Fleet" ferries were everywhere. It was a way of life and going into town was a big event for them.

There is still lots of extant evidence and piling structure from the various docks. About 6 houses down from me was the old Pt. Fosdick ferry and dock, whats left of it and the toll cabin are still there. Over the years the cabin has been somewhat expanded and I know the people who live there. At high tide he could probably drop a crab pot in his living room and get a pretty good catch.

The Black Ball Ferry from Port Angeles through the Strait of Juan De Fuca may be cheaper and the views are magnificent. Olympic mountains to the south and Island mountains to the north. I've never crossed from the Vancouver City side so I can't comment on that.

We won a raffle at one of my wifes fund raising events and we are going to Victoria later this month. We will take the passenger only ferry from Seattle.

If you Google Black Ball Ferry I'm sure they have published rates and the advantage of coming up the Olympic Peninsula is you can go through the park as well. Some of the most rugged unspoiled coastline is around Kalalock and Ruby Beach still takes my breath away.

Victoria is beautiful, but once you get away from the water and on some of the side streets things quickly degenerate. Lots of drugs and homeless people, so be prepared for that. Buchart Gardens a little north of town Is worth a whole day.

When I was in high school my brother, me and another friend hiked the coast from Kalalock to Moclps through reservation land. I think it was over a 100 mile trek and sometimes we had to wait out the tide because the coastline was so rugged. The Tribes used to encourage this kind of activity but lately have stopped anyone from doing it. My son tried and was told no. I think the casino money has made the land more valuable and they want to limit access.

I agree that the AS attempt to engage this Forum was awkward. I'm sure Bob Wheeler remembers you, probably not with suspicion though. Maybe contempt but not suspicion. Unless this thread takes another unexpected turn I'm about done with it. I wish Mohave would read both of the threads relating to his experience, collect his thoughts and give us a good narrative from start to finish with names, dates etc. so we could have a better idea of what happened. I know it will be only his side but he appears to be at peace with the incident and I think would be able to give us a good account. It's difficult for me to get a handle on these events when I'm going through two threads and everybody is commenting.

Paul and Lisa, can you do this please? It may be painful, but you would sure satisfy the curiosity of everybody and may help someone down the road as well.

Dan

[danlehosky]

Bob, you would have loved it out here in the 60's.

Dan

[Air Apparent]

Originally Posted by masseyfarm

Bluebird --- You have to decipher these things of those of us not into texting.
I presume WWWD means "What Would Wally Do"? and I think that is a good question.

Dave

masseyfarm:

Sorry; you are correct.

[mutcth]

Originally Posted by susans69

Unfortunately, almost anything built after 2000 is poor quality. That is why I have purchased an older model and am upgrading and rebuilding it myself. With a whole lot of help from this wonderful forum and the people who participate. Good luck in your future purchase.

Since I've owned both a 1977 Argosy and a 2007 Airstream, I want to address this. There were quality control issues in my 1977 trailer, just as there are fit and finish gaffes in my 2007. (I'd like to meet the person who put in my 2007's vinyl flooring near the door - and buy them eyeglasses. Yikes.) Also, my 2007 has A LOT more things that could have been done wrong - the level of equipment is quite a bit higher.

I don't want to excuse Airstream's QC issues. And there is evidence that the early trailers were more stoutly designed, particularly in some frame details.

But there isn't really proof that someone buying a new 1966, 1976, 1986, or 1996 trailer didn't have problems too. They just didn't have the interweb.

Tom

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by danlehosky

Bob, you would have loved it out here in the 60's.

Dan

I may have....I was lost.

Bob

[Gene]

The first QC/design crisis was during the Beatrice Foods era. BF bought the companies from the Byam family and owned it through the '70's and sold it to what was or became Thor in 1980. Beatrice was a food company and why they thought Airstream was a good investment is inexplicable.

One major issue was their reduction of the frame size from 4" or 5" to 3". The addition of the black tank at the rear and building rear bath models with weak frames, made rear separation all too common (with OSB subfloors and another cheapening of frames, separation showed up again about a decade ago; lessons not learned). Cost cutting hurt Airstream and a late 70's recession resulted in big losses.

The change in ownership was what saved the company and QC improved. But the guys who bought it and created Thor Industries were investment and M&A guys, not RV guys. They created a very successful RV company as a financial entity, but were not grounded in RV's. Thor produces marginal RV's and makes big profits; Airstream is useful to give Thor a good reputation. But by cheapening the Thor "premium" brand, they undercut this business model. As American industry has changed from making quality products to a companies established for making money as investment opportunities rather than quality products, Thor has become even more profit and short term oriented.

So, the 1970's trailers were made during a bad period for the company and people who buy them should expect issues if they haven't been fixed by a previous owner. Same for the '00's and to date. Some things go back further into the '90's. Susans' statement that anything since 2000 is poor quality is something of an overstatement, but had truth in it too. She bought a vintage trailer (was it a Streamline? it is on another thread). Streamline was one of a few companies that after WW II build aluminum trailers, somewhat influenced by Airstream, but not as good on aerodynamics. But they were really good trailers, better than Airstream, and expensive. They all eventually failed—Airstream exteriors are more iconic and attractive and I think Airstreams cost less. If you want to restore a vintage trailer, looking for some of these vintage ones that were made so well, especially during the Beatrice era, is a good idea.

One fixture of this Forum from almost the beginning have been complaints about design issues, cost cutting, overpriced products, cheap items, poor workmanship and QC. Pre-internet the public would not have known about these problems. Word of mouth would have caused some marketing and sales issues and perhaps something would have showed up in RV magazines, but few really would have known about it. The Forum has made these questions available for many more potential customers. The company has been stymied by this. The marketing person at Airstream never lasts long. In the past decade, the average tenure is not much more than a year. This is one of the top jobs at Airstream and Wheeler either can't select the right person, cannot keep the person, or is an awful boss. So Mollie Hansen, you've been on this job since late last year, and better start sending out CV's now, because you'll probably be gone by Christmas.

And Tom, your two trailers were made at the low points for Airstream reliability, so I feel for you. Your latest one has had some frustrating things to fix and I know you'll figure it out and make it a near perfect trailer over time. It is time for a new floor. Advice can be found on my road trips 2012 thread (and elsewhere). Almost anything will look better than the cheap vinyl sheeting.

Gene