Adios Airstream

[ROBERT CROSS]

"I have never thought of AS as being in a rut"

1936-2012 without a significant improvement in materials, construction techniques, or functionality, that's a rut.

If it's badged Airstream it's an Airstream.

The factory is afraid to offend the "purists". If it's not shiny, has rivets and panels with lots of leaky seams and filiform it's not an Airstream.

Hard for me to believe they couldn't keep the basic's and still bring the whole into the 21st Century.

OMG...take me outback to the woodshed.

Bob

[RangerJay]

This thread has taken an interesting, but not so positive, turn when it starts talking about urban vs. rural strengths and values.

My wife and myself were raised and educated near Toronto but have spent our entire married lives and careers in what many would consider remote small communities (villages even) that range from a few hundred folks to a few thousand.

In our almost 40 years of marriage we have both come to a very clear conclusion that rural community values far outweigh urban community values. Today - in our retirement years - we've become small town folks (country hicks some might say) and are proud to say so.

How might this relate to Airstream and this thread?

The service end of the Airstream organization in (rural) Jackson Centre has a lot of respect - from pretty much everyone.

The manufacturing end of the Airstream organization - in the same community - 100 yards away - does not enjoy the same respect.

I wonder if it is a stretch to speculate that the strength of the service end might be a direct reflection of long standing and skilled employees mirroring their communities rural strength and pride ......

And I wonder if it can be further speculated that the challenges of the manufacturing end might be a direct reflection of unreasonable and unsupported corporate (urban) drive that cannot be reasonably met by the workforce ......

I dunno - but there is clearly something wrong in the manufacturing end ..... and 100 yards away ..... a service organization enjoys nothing but accolades.


Jay

[danlehosky]

Bob, you're somewhat right. But the rut is working for them.(somehow)
Ranger Jay, The manufacturing end has a much different model of profitability than the service end. The culture of manufacturing is get em out the door, where service tends to be more thoughtful and the outcomes vary with the individual problems.

Warranty service however would be much different than out of warranty service. One can be very profitable and one can significantly cut into into your profits. Has anyone on this forum had warranty and then non-warranty service done on their coach and noticed any difference in the quality or perspective of advice or work?

Dan

[Gene]

Rural areas have lower incomes that urban ones. With that comes fewer opportunities for education and exposure to modern skills. The smartest people who can't afford college or grad school, will never develop their skills as much as someone with the opportunity to do so. Isolation is far less than it was before instant communications, but they are still isolated. Urban areas have the resources to advance skills and education and these things gradually spread outward. In having lived in rural and urban places (as well as ex-urbs), I have noticed a stubornness to change in rural areas. That can hold them back.

This leads to a workforce that has fewer skills and a resistance to change. Pride in workmanship seems to be a problem that I would expect to be the same (or even better) in rural areas, but it sure doesn't seem to exist at the factory.

Of course, someone runs the factory and someone else runs the shop. Management sets the tone and that counts for a lot. If the manager is resistant to change, learns nothing of what others are doing in the industry, and is content to keep things as they are, that will affect the product regardless of the quality of the workers. And workers in the shop have to be detectives and be able to fix many, many different things. Diagnosis is a valuable skill needed in the shop, but not in the factory. Workers in the factory start with insulation, and learn things little by little, and may never learn much about anything but their area of work. Shop mechanics should get higher pay. Higher pay attracts better skilled workers, maybe even some from the big cities.

Re-engineering Airstreams and modernizing production is very expensive. Airstream may not have nearly enough to do this fast, but it could be done at less of a pace. And they do change, ever so slowly. Faster would be good. Rather than piecemeal change, they could look at major changes.

There are differences between rural and urban culture, education and skills. If the factory draws labor from the local area, does this affect production values? Is there a rural mindset in management that resists change? Or is it just that the business plan is working well enough and why rock the boat?

Gene

[SilverRanger]

Originally Posted by danlehosky

...
Warranty service however would be much different than out of warranty service. One can be very profitable and one can significantly cut into into your profits. Has anyone on this forum had warranty and then non-warranty service done on their coach and noticed any difference in the quality or perspective of advice or work?
Dan

Dan,
I've had warranty, and non-warranty, service from the dealership where I bought it. Where the work was actually done under warranty, the quality was virtually indistinguishable. When I say "actually done", I mean the items that Airstream gave approval to repair. They did not approve things like the defective (from day one) black tank flushing system, and any corrosion. I've forgotten all of the items on the list, but still have the paperwork somewhere.

In some cases, like the corrosion on the tail light bezel and grab handle, the dealership replaced them at their expense, in the interest of good customer relations. For what it's worth, I consider all corrosion on Airstreams during the warranty period, as a factory defect or caused by sub-standard aluminum components and, in no way, to be environmental, and should be covered under the warranty. I say this because all items that were replaced by the dealer began to corrode in less than a year. I've been to the factory four times, and have seen first hand how the edges of some of the aluminum panels are slid across the concrete floor on their edges, which likely abrades the clear coat. This type of corrosion showed up on my trailer during the warranty period as well.

I just had some non-warranty work at Jackson Center, and it was exceptional. I thought the cost was reasonable, and being able to watch and talk to the mechanic during the work was priceless.

Oddly, the best work I have had done to date, was at the dealership under the 7 year extended warranty I bought at the time of purchase. They did extensive work on the heating and plumbing systems (including the black tank flusher), and replaced the entire audio/video package originally installed by Airstream with all new equipment because it was also defective from day one. Ironically, it was the installation that was defective, and not the equipment. So I ended up with two working systems, as they returned the original back to me. Most people would advise against extended warranties and, for the most part, so would I. But this one paid for itself twice over. I made quite a long repair list, and asked them to contact me if there were any problems or deviations. They did the entire list, no questions asked. The warranty expires on the 15th of this month.

This is my experience and perspective. Hope it helps.

[SteSpot]

As one who is trying to restore a 1982 Airstream motorhome, I am finding it very difficult to find replacement parts because the industry as a whole has shrunk. Take gas ranges for example. I called Airstream to see what they are using and they told me that Magic Chef had shut down and they were now using Atwood ranges. I had to order one (2-3 week) delivery because the dealer in CA nearest to me doesn't keep them in stock and apparently Atwood doesn't either....they make to order....when it arrived in CA from Florida, it had been packaged so poorly that the range was damaged......my choice was to reorder and hope they could figure out how to ship across country without damage or find another......there is a Seaward Princess range made in Whittier, CA 4-6 week delivery....more money and maybe a better stove made for the yachting market.....

Trying to find a RV round shower faucet to fit the round hole in the abs shower....could have used a house one but the fittings in the back are bigger.....finally found a Scandvik made in Sweden for yachts...had to order that one too....it is beautiful but pricier than I had in mind.......

So I guess my point is that things are really tight in the RV business. I am not trying to excuse Airstream just trying to understand what is.....we are lucky that they even make them at all. I also understand that Airstream is in the business of making NEW ones.....they really aren't interested in the restoration market understandably so because they don't make anything off of a restoration. And maybe they have figured out if they make them to last forever, they will sell fewer in the future....

That said, if they are going to be made at all, they should be made the best way for the current times.....but just because they should does not necessarily mean they could......times are tough now. paula

[danlehosky]

Ranger Jay, I guess it's all in what you're looking for. I like the cultural and economic diversity of large cities where I have worked all my life.

Quality of life is what you, as an individual make of it. There are lots of meth labs in rural parts of Washington state and in some where logging and fishing are no longer the economic engines they once were, the poverty is staggering.
For you, living in a rural area is satisfying and I applaud that. For many it's a life they can't escape. Generational and geographical poverty are hard nuts to crack.

I also live in small town, close to a big city, and like it here. My family and friends are here and I have a good life. A career here would have been difficult as a young man though.

Cities, and those in particular that have a university presence are generally the best places to thrive, both financially and culturally. I drove 40 miles every day for almost 30 years to take advantage of these opportunities.

The internet has been a game changer for many, but only in you can afford and have access to services

Jackson Center has built a business model that works and is profitable for them. Many of the workers may have little choice and AS may, and I suspect is the largest player in town. I believe the assembly center was consolidated in JC instead of LA is because labor in LA was becoming to expensive.

Does AS Contribute to health care benefits or 401K's. I don't know. Are employees represented by a union where they can collectively bargain for better conditions? Again I don't know. Being in the rural seting they are and the probable poverty level of this part of Ohio I think not though. I hope AS is doing the best they can.

Assuming that high workmanship standards are a concequence of a country life is flawed. I've worked with people all my life who brougt high standards and the work ethic to succeed no matter where they came from. Many of these virtues were cultivated in cities and rural areas as well.

The big question is why am I sitting here on Saturday night writing this. I'm going to go out to the trailer and make some HURINE. Wake me up at 11.

Dan

[SilverRanger]

Originally Posted by RangerJay

The service end of the Airstream organization in (rural) Jackson Centre has a lot of respect - from pretty much everyone.

The manufacturing end of the Airstream organization - in the same community - 100 yards away - does not enjoy the same respect.

I wonder if it is a stretch to speculate that the strength of the service end might be a direct reflection of long standing and skilled employees mirroring their communities rural strength and pride ......

And I wonder if it can be further speculated that the challenges of the manufacturing end might be a direct reflection of unreasonable and unsupported corporate (urban) drive that cannot be reasonably met by the workforce ......

I dunno - but there is clearly something wrong in the manufacturing end ..... and 100 yards away ..... a service organization enjoys nothing but accolades.
Jay

Jay,
I agree with your insightful assessment. Especially your speculation that the 'challenges of the manufacturing end might be a direct reflection of unreasonable and unsupported corporate (urban) drive that cannot be reasonably met by the workforce ......'

I think that may be spot on because, if you look at the pedigrees of most, if not all, of the executive staff, you'll probably find that they do not come from the community, and did not rise to their positions through the ranks of the Airstream company. I have met many of them, past and present employees, and believe this to be accurate. I also believe most of the production, and repair staff to be from the Jackson Center area, or nearby communities. Many are long term employees, but get their direction from management. Anyone who implies that the production problems at Airstream are because of under skilled, or under educated employees may be off base. I suppose there are different kinds of smart. I managed and worked with employees with master's and doctoral degrees and the smartest person I ever met was a friend of my grandfather who had a sixth grade education. Hey, that's my opinion. I'm told everyone has them.

While out in Jackson Center last week, I had an interesting encounter at a nearby campground. While in line to dump the tanks, we were approached by a very nice lady with two young kids. She asked us if we liked our Airstream. I know this has happened to many of us Airstream owners. Of course, we said we loved it, and that we had two of them. She gave an audible sigh of relief, and told us that she and her husband both worked at Airstream. I told her that she seemed relieved at our answer, and she told me that sometimes the answer isn't always as positive as ours. The best part... she and her husband owned an Airstream, and they were on vacation at the campground with their grandchildren. It was a vintage, but I was still encouraged that an employee really likes the product, and obviously took pride in their work.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by danlehosky

The big question is why am I sitting here on Saturday night writing this. I'm going to go out to the trailer and make some HURINE. Wake me up at 11.

Dan

Dan, even more worrying is—why am I reading it on Saturday night?

This is related to something my wife says: "you know you're old when the phone rings on Friday night and you hope it's not for you".

But to get back to whatever, native intelligence can be found anywhere. I have known very bright people with terrible educations. Education helps in most cases, though sometimes it stifles creativity.

Probably we need a sociologist to report back to us on all this.

Gene

[danlehosky]

Gene, An educated fool is still a fool.....
Two important things I've learned
Sociology classes taught me how crazy everybody else is
Psychology classes taught me how crazy I am.

Dan
Avoiding the phone too.

[Air Apparent]

[QUOTE=Phoenix;1158865]
I think if Thor could answer these "philosophical questions", they could reduce costs and increase reliability by switching to newer materials and construction techniques.

Then, if we could just get Thor to quit putting Goodyear Marathons on Airstreams, ... QUOTE]

Thor has always operated as a very decentralized company. The Thor corporate offices has very few people. Thor has always allowed each company to operate as a separate company to meet corporate profit goals. This is different than most large corporations but it is how it operated under Thompson.Thor sets the bonus structure for its companies.

It's Airstream management that is directly running Airstream that need to answer your "philosophical questions".

[Tony S]

I have read this thread with interest for a few days now instead of about restoring my 73 Tradewind. A couple of quick comments.

I believe pride of workmanship is part of a larger set of values. It may begin with ,as wise old Socrates admonished, to know thy self. To me, a lowly, state college educated, blue collar woodworker, long time, rural living, X city person, what I do, how I do it, and how easy I don’t break when going gets tough is paramount to how I perform my work and who I am. If you’re a blue-collar person, society does not readily lavish praise or status on you. What you do have is your work and if you don’t have pride in it, almost as a sacred thing, what do you have?

I will say when you live in urban environments in order to get along with so many others so close around you have to refine your thinking and be adaptable. You may even develop thinking that like “except for the grace of god go I and develop compassion and tolerance”.

On the other hand, there can be too much blah, blah, blah and encroachment by other who are not grounded in place and community like they can be in smaller communities and living closer to the land and a traditional lifestyle. Some people think milk comes from the store and don’t know there is a cow involved. Maybe they go to the school according to Snookey

I have found many correlations between Airstream and their lovers and old tool guys. I knew this even back when I was looking. I gently warned myself to listen with a grain a salt knowing that true believers can lead you astray. It served me well as has this fine forum and the help I have gotten from it.

Many fine tool names of yesteryear are hollow shells of what they used to be. Delta and Powermatic are a joke and their customer service is worse. If you call and ask a question about a Powermatic table saw you will most likely get some pimple face kid flipping through pages in a binder to find the answer, which he won't find.

At the same time, in contrast, a high-end tool company, Festool, of Germany, have exceeded their growth expectations in this country. Their tools are about 25 percent better than anything else and cost close to twice as much. Over the years their warrantee has gotten better. The three years applies now to not only the original owner. They, I believe, pay shipping too. It is a pleasure to use their tools with long cords and innovative features. People seem to forget the high cost they paid to work with such quality. Those that can afford them, like Airstreams, will happily pay and enjoy what they have bought. And tell their friends about the joy to be found. The worse thing is pay a premium price and not get what you should. They we tell our friends a different story, a tale of woes.


Another thing, I doubt the Airstream executives care about the same things as some owners of Airstream do, except to play off their emotional connection to the product , Americana, history, icon, Wally and all the rest, in an ad to sell us. Their concern is to put the beans in their bank accounts, but far be it for me to be cynical in public.

Regards

Tony

[jimbob79]

One of the most intelligent people I have ever known only has a high school degree - name an animal and he will tell you the genius and specie. He can converse about anything yet is humble - mosquitoes don't bite him out of respect. I know individuals who have PHD's who really don't know great deal about anything. The problem with workers at AS is likely a lack of motivation to build a great product, because of management or society. Happy, motivated people build great products, regardless of low pay or lack of education. I know a young man who grew up on the streets of Juarez who was a computer animator on Iron Man 2 and Transformers 2 as well ss other videos.

[danlehosky]

Tony, saying that living in a small community makes you more more grounded makes no sense to me. I know plenty of very well grounded people from both settings. Some may be better suited to one or the other, but grounding comes from within your own set of values not your enviornment.

Dan

[Tony S]

Actually I was saying it can go either way and was not taking a stand just throwing it out there. I said "can be". I should of bit my tongue

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, this is a tragic story. But I've seen them before. Working at new car dealers since 1968 I have seen it all. [almost] There were people that couldn't be pleased and there were vehicles that couldn't or shouldn't be repaired. Any RV tech should be able to seal any RV. [even if it's an Airstream] How many of us/you have repaired things on your Airstream without problems and without factory training? Mojave got a bad trailer and and like many bad cars, it should have been a Buy Back. [or replaced at no cost to them]

As for Airstream; It's time to modernize a little bit. How about some bows made more like the ones in airplanes. This way the roundness of all Airstreams and all of the parts would be the same. Not like now where the left front and the right front floors have a different curve to them. Also I think it is time to die-cut or stamp out all holes in the body panels for windows, vents, and doors Etc. Not freehand with a pneumatic cutter or nibbler. I also think it is time for a stronger frame that doesn't depend on a piece of plywood to hold the body to the frame.

Has anyone noticed the yellow school busses shaped like an Airstream and riveted like an Airstream, but made much better? What are they doing different? [besides painting them]

I think this thread has had the blame game going round and round. I blame Airstream for making one bad trailer. And I blame Airstream for not doing a Buy Back on one bad trailer. Just admit that you made a bad one, take it back, and let the workers dissect it so they can learn from their mistakes.

[danlehosky]

Tony, I should have bit mine too. Come up and look at the dory sometime. Or google Thunderbird Sailboat Kit. The designers last name was Hoppen. They had a hell of a time bending that marine plywood. They used winches, come-alongs, dock pilings, concrete curbs. Whatever was handy.

Dan

[danlehosky]

Jimbob, Intelligence and education are two very differet things. They usually mix very well though.

[SilverRanger]

Is anyone here but me having a problem accessing page 4 of this thread? I was reading back through the thread to see if I could get additional perspective, and to see if I offended anyone with my comments to the point they have put me on ignore. Whenever I try to access page 4, it returns to page 3. I can access page 5, and the rest of the thread, by clicking directly on them. As it stands now, posts 76-100 are missing. At least, they are for me. I guess it could be my browser, or me.

EDIT: It was my browser (Firefox). I was able to access those posts using Internet Explorer. Happy to say that none of the posts were mine.

[AWCHIEF]

Curious, I guess I missed it with the turn this discussion has taken. What was the final disposition of the trailer that was the source of this discussion? Scraped, bought back by Airstream or pawned off to some unsuspecting sucker? I did find one reference to "consignment".