Adios Airstream

[SilverRanger]

Great idea, Dan. I missed most of the discussion. I was outside trying to get the Thor decal off of my Airstream.

[redwoodguy]

Raising money in the capital markets means a business plan like Thor's --all about growth. That is not the firm you want to create.

Raise all the money from enthusiasts, and you can built a small, profitable, luxury brand. There is no need to sell more quantity when it is all about quality.

[danlehosky]

Chuck, thats why I said my post was a what if..... I'm well aware of the brutal business enviornment Thor is operating under in this economy. I think RWG hit the nail on the head though. They're in business to make money. The Boards fiduciary responsibility is to the stockholders not to us, the consumers. The Board sets the course, Bob Wheeler guides the ship.

However, My thoughts were not to start up another corporate entity to rival or outperform Thor. Just a group of guys with I'm seeing a lot of expertise who value a product over quarterly profits. I've spent most of my career in design and in most ways my objectives and goals were much different than anything a corporate Board would have endorsed. I think about products as a pure objective.What is produced and the quality of the product would be my goal. This company would not make much money, if any and many of the investors would lose their cash. The venture capital I would be looking for would come from guys much like yourself. Guys who would pay 50 grand to build a product that was unencumbered by profit motives. If a company promotes a culture of product perfection the profits will follow. Eventually.

As naive as this sounds, I can't respect a corporation where the bottom line is pure profit. Unfortunately most of corporate America functions within this model in order to stay in business. Thor is no exception.

Anyway, wouldn't it be a lot of fun? And I'm sure we could build a much better trailer. I'm talking Aston Martin here. I'll take a DB9.

Dan

[Gene]

Maybe Thor is ripe for a takeover by vulture capitalists. I think Thor has low debt and lots of cash. Stock prices may be low because of the weakness of the RV industry.

Organize a limited partnership with a small group of fairly wealthy managing partners and take in limited partners to raise more capital. Start buying stock while the partnership's analysts run down the industry to bring down stock prices more. Work with the executives at Thor to help with a buyout. Promise them big, big payouts when the partnership takes over the corporation. Large consulting fees more than make up for the investments made as you loot the treasury with fees. Once the buyout is complete, start issuing debt to use to pay big dividends to the managing partners and smaller ones to the limited partners. Move production to China where underpaid workers still manage to make a cheap, but mediocre product—after all, no one expects RV's to be reliable.

Eventually the debt overwhelms the company but the partners make more money advising the company through bankruptcy and more reorganization. The result is the partnership makes hundreds of millions on an investments of much less. Or, before bankruptcy becomes evident, take the company public again, sell shares at inflated values, cash in for multimillions in fees and stock sale and go look for another company to loot.

No creativity necessary. Plenty of young lawyers and MBA's need jobs and know how to do the work on this guided by some cynical, older lawyers and MBA's. This looks like a lot easier than being creative in improving the product and making modest amounts of money. I think this outcome is more likely too.

But I'd like to see a wholly different outcome. If I were 20 years younger….

Gene

[mefly2]

Wow, read the last few pages to catch up...now to take a breath. One has to wonder if Mojave would have hooked an attorney onto his warranty issues, the end result might have been a bit more to his liking. Most states have a consumer advocate that handles warranty / insurance issues at no charge to the public. Caveat Emptor; if our liquid financial situation allowed purchase of a larger AS, we'd do it in a heartbeat. However, right now, my background as an economist tells me to do otherwise... investment options for a potential global crisis trump short term discretionary issues.

[masseyfarm]

To hesitate is to loose the opportunity to suffer the anxiety of the day.

Dave

Originally Posted by mefly2

Wow, read the last few pages to catch up...now to take a breath. One has to wonder if Mojave would have hooked an attorney onto his warranty issues, the end result might have been a bit more to his liking. Most states have a consumer advocate that handles warranty / insurance issues at no charge to the public. Caveat Emptor; if our liquid financial situation allowed purchase of a larger AS, we'd do it in a heartbeat. However, right now, my background as an economist tells me to do otherwise... investment options for a potential global crisis trump short term discretionary issues.

[Zugbug]

We have had great fun with our AS and are still loving it, reading this thread one has to wonder why people don't just sell them and find something else to do, save what sounds like a lot of frustration.

[xrvr]

Zbug, because misery loves company and some people want all of us to be as miserable as they are. Pretty self centered. Jim

[SilverRanger]

Originally Posted by zigzagguzzi

Zbug, because misery loves company and some people want all of us to be as miserable as they are. Pretty self centered. Jim

Odd, I don't recall anyone here trying to discourage your optimism about your Airstream. Yet, you add little more to the discussion than to criticize those who have had a different experience.


Who's self-centered? There's a remedy for that.

[danlehosky]

Z and z, I'm not miserable and I have no intention to make either of you miserable or to share in your misery or anger. If this made me mad or I wasn't enjoying the banter I would just unsubscribe from the thread. Is it really that you are escatic with your purchase or have you backed yourself into a defensive corner at all costs. Again, I'm mostly happy with my trailer, but in some areas I've settled. And I don't like that. The design of the rear gaucho, dinette is pathetic. Almost unusable. I will change this. Zig I'm really glad you're happy, but some people are having problems and this thread has gone a long way in showing that Thor and AS are no longer in the travel trailer business. They are merely a corporate conglomerate that manufactures travel trailers as a way to satisfy their shareholders rather than the consumers who buy them. If it were the opposite there would be few quality issues and these issues would be easily taken care of without a drive across the country.

Everytime I think this thread has run it's course something else pops back up. Yesterday I was thinking about a different model where quality and customer service trump profits. I know it would never fly or even roll but I was having fun and I think this discussion has opened up a lot of peoples eyes about corporate culture in general. Your AS is not produced to be the best travel trailer available but to be the most profitable trailer for Thor industries. The bottom line will always prevail.

Gene, I'm looking for some money here.

But then think about what happened at Earthbound.

Dan

[xrvr]

What makes you think I am happy? I just think the whining and complaining continually is negative and leads to unhappy campers. My trailer leaks too and I have other problems with it also, but I bought it and can sell it if I please. Whipping a dead horse will not make it come back to life or keep your trailer from leaking. Sorry, jim

[mutcth]

Originally Posted by danlehosky

But then think about what happened at Earthbound.

Dan, what ultimately did happen at Earthbound? Last I checked they were still in business, but they moved to a build-to-order model with very expensive pricing.

Folks here have mentioned other vehicles that are nearly perfect. Those products are also built by corporations who want to maximize profit. But they benefit heavily from a more direct corporate structure (BMW decides how to build BMWs, rather than Airstream having to justify product investments to Thor) and highly automated assembly. They also have external pressures (JD Powers, Consumer Reports) pushing them to make the product better to avoid being at the bottom of some ranking.

Finally, I like that this is a forum where people can post negative things; others can choose to ignore them at a click of a button. True, a potential purchaser needs to wade through the information to make a reasoned choice - but at least they are indeed making an informed decision.

Tom

[Jammer]

I'm still here, sorta, I guess, but have been out camping in my Airstream for a week and a half. So I guess I missed the moment. Anyway...

The thing that I think is getting lost here is that it is very, very, difficult to get major repairs authorized and performed under warranty.

The Mother Ship will routinely authorize all kinds of minor warranty work, even things that they probably aren't really obligated to fix, and without much in the way of investigation or paperwork from the dealer. And dealers of all stripe, Airstream or not, are all quite capable of getting minor warranty work authorized and performed on appliances by dealing directly with Dometic, Atwood, Amana, etc.

The overwhelming majority of warranty repairs are simple replacements of failed assemblies involving at most a few hundred dollars worth of readily available parts and a few hours of labor. Most forum members' warranty repairs fall into this category and therefore most people's perception of the warranty system is a positive one.

The system falls apart with major repairs. In my experience Airstream does not approve major repairs on the first request. There are delays and they ask for more information, for photos. By this time any dealer/repair station is going to have the trailer back outside because they need the service bay for other work. The factory does not follow up with the dealer (again in my experience) and expects the dealer or customer to take the initiative to get things done.

From a dealer's point of view, they are put in the situation of constantly bringing the trailer into the service bay for unbillable/unpaid diagnostic work that falls halfway in between the usual responsibilities of the RV tech and the customer service rep.

Once repairs are authorized the actual scope of the problem may prove larger than originally thought and so the process starts over again with more photos and more time on the lot while the mother ship dithers and reviews.

And finally once truly major repairs are authorized parts availability becomes a problem insofar as expensive, bulky components with poor availability may be required. In my case it took weeks to get a rarely needed window and frame assembly. While my local dealer was able to complete the repairs (competently, I might add), that isn't always true.

The upshot of this is that it falls to the trailer owner to constantly call and nag the dealer and the mother ship and make sure that they're talking to each other, doing their jobs, and being reasonable. Not every trailer owner has the skills, demeanor, and wherewithal to make dozens of calls over the course of several months.

This isn't about initial quality or about the handling of routine warranty repairs.

It is a specific problem that Airstream has in dealing with major, costly, difficult repairs that occur under warranty. And make no mistake, it is an Airstream problem, borne of an attempt to control warranty costs by reducing waste and fraud. Unfortunately, because the absolute numbers of owners who go through this rigamarole is small, Airstream management treats these situations as isolated incidents.

They're not. They're routine, among people who need major warranty work, except those who take their trailer to Jackson Center or one of the two or three highest volume Airstream dealers who understand the system and get on the customer's side from the beginning.

[Gene]

Jim, I know some people love to complain, but that doesn't make their complaints untruthful. Some are trying to explain the way corporate America acts and that information is useful in understanding the issues. Whining is different from complaining and indicates a personality issue, but as much I am irritated by whiners, sometimes they are right even if the delivery is hard to listen to. Some people resent any critique of Airstreams and don't listen to others' truths. They could be called names too, but no one has, so far.

To me, the fact that some people have no or few problems and some have many needs some understanding. Does it mean QC is really bad at Airstream and some workers do a good job and others do a bad job? Maybe the QC effort is spotty, or the QC engineer is not doing his job, or the QC engineer is overwhelmed and can't watch everyone? This indicates poor management in the factory and/or insufficient resources dedicated to QC.

I started another thread to focus on suggestions (Airstream Suggestion Box) and minimize repetitious complaints. I did it because it seemed an approach more likely to be listened to by the company and possibly improve the quality of new trailers. It was made clear that once an issue was identified, the posts should emphasize suggestions to solve the issue. I get nothing from that except if my suggestion to extend the factory warranty is adopted. I have no need to buy a new trailer, however improved, but at least I get to offer suggestions that have been on my mind. If they were adopted, Airstreams would hold value better and I suppose that would eventually benefit me (or my widow). I think that thread is going well and I know it is being listened to at Airstream. Jim, your posts were one reason I started the thread.

I hope your leaks are solved and the tarp holds up. We could use some of that rain in the southwest and I would be willing to have a leak just to get some moisture here. You must be aware of the many forest fires here, so if your trailer fills up with water, just tow it to Colorado and empty it here. And I hope Debby doesn't cause any more flooding, tornadoes or wind damage. Good luck in Gainesville.

Gene

[danlehosky]

Tom, last I heard Earthbound was reorganizing and focusing only on high end custom coaches. I feel bad for them. They hit the recession at just the right time to fail. They had design problems that they were trying to work through but it didn't look good. I believe they got some local money either in the form of substantial tax breaks or outright capital to locate the plant where they did. I think this arrangement went south as well. Last I heard they were scrambling for money and had lost their dealer network. CanAm was selling them at one point.

I admire their inginuity and courage and if they had started the business about five years earlier than they had I believe they would have had more of a chance. I wish them luck. There was a similiar coach being built by a company called Evergreen. Has anyone heard anything about them. I always thought Earthbound was a bad choice for a product badge, especially when you compare it with Airstream.

Dan

[Gene]

Jammer, good post.

Our dealer would not fight for us. Despite the fact a dealer's best shop customer is the manufacturer paying for warranty work, they would not take action on our behalf. I wrote the president of Thor and soon got a call from Airstream authorizing the work. I had to do the dealer's job and that wasted several people's time (including mine). There has to be a better way to do this.

I understand manufacturers worry about dealers ripping them off by doing unnecessary repairs. I believe every warranty repair has to be authorized. I have noticed some people have the problems Jammer outlined on major repairs. With a small dealer network spread out across N. America, Airstream does not appear to have local reps who know the dealers well and can quickly authorize major repairs and make sure the dealers know what they are doing. For ex., our local Toyota dealer has a factory rep who comes to the dealer frequently and knows them well. It rarely takes more than a week to get an answer. That's not all that great when your car is dead, but it is a lot faster than people in Ohio trying to figure out long distance what is going on. So, I understand the limits on a small company, but the reputation of the small company suffers when things drag on and on, or they tolerate bad dealers because they don't seem to be able to recruit better ones.

Gene

[masseyfarm]

Looks like they are still producing?


In The News | Earthbound RV

Dave

Originally Posted by danlehosky

Tom, last I heard Earthbound was reorganizing and focusing only on high end custom coaches. I feel bad for them. They hit the recession at just the right time to fail. They had design problems that they were trying to work through but it didn't look good. I believe they got some local money either in the form of substantial tax breaks or outright capital to locate the plant where they did. I think this arrangement went south as well. Last I heard they were scrambling for money and had lost their dealer network. CanAm was selling them at one point.

I admire their inginuity and courage and if they had started the business about five years earlier than they had I believe they would have had more of a chance. I wish them luck. There was a similiar coach being built by a company called Evergreen. Has anyone heard anything about them. I always thought Earthbound was a bad choice for a product badge, especially when you compare it with Airstream.

Dan

[redwoodguy]

Does anyone know the annual revenue for AS? My guess is $74M. I would guess maybe $4M or so profit.

if the latter is accurate, the company value may be as low as $20M. In that range. I bet it would be easy to sell private stock in that range from dedicated owners and fans. Add another $10 M in working capital and you have a sweet SMALL business.

[redwoodguy]

I was not too impressed with Earthbound trailers. Inside looked like a 70s Country Cottage. They were close to my FC in price and half as nice.

[redwoodguy]

If your bank statement every month showed the bank was making errors in their favor would it be negative and bad to whine and complain, or should one simply accept it as the way life is? I really got a laugh out of the many comments that "whining and complaining" is negative, and that somehow equates to bad and undesirable behavior. From what I have learned about AS service, I am rather surprised they aren't yet fighting a class action lawsuit, if not many individual ones.

Why is corporate bad behavior tolerated and condoned by anyone? Of course I know the answer, but I am wondering if it is as obvious to many others? "Shut up, keep quite, don't complain, don't be negative, be happy with whatever the heck you get," is the clear message here. Really?

Sure, I get the idea of fanboys and all that, but this is big money at stake here for many people. "Shut up and take it", just doesn't cut it my book. I think people in this thread have been the model of restraint while offering their negative experiences. I've seen no nasty or untoward remarks at all.

I think the whole point of collective complaining (righteously) is that it can build a swell that can no longer be ignored by the company. Why wouldn't all you fans want to see them be honest and forthright in their warranty claims?

As an example - - let's say someone here volunteered to write a detailed, honest, hard as nails complaint to the AS CEO and it was signed by 20 owners. Wait - now let's say it could be signed by 100 owners? Better yet, this is the Internet - why not 500 owners? Wait, better yet why not include a statement that the undersigned aren't going to buy a new trailer UNTIL some changes are made? With an annual production of just 1400 units, I would say that will have some impact. Who wouldn't want an improved warranty?