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Old 02-08-2012, 10:13 PM   #15
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Airstream Insulation Test 1

My first attempt (ever) at a youtube upload. The videois streched. The test pieces are square.

Airstream Insulation Test 1
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:39 PM   #16
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FC7039 - I am definitely going to have to see a video of this! Are you saying that HSC would work better painted on the (non-showing side of the) interior skin? How would HSC painted on the inside of the exterior skin (and ribs) work with Prodex (or some other bubble insulation), maybe separated by foam blocks? Also, did HSC actually make the temperature rise between the control and test?

My ramblings were confusing.

Heat from the outer skin can transfer to the inner skin via conduction, convection and radiate. Aluminum does not emit radiant heat well. With a layer of HSC, this negates the aluminum and the white paint radiates the heat.


It is my understanding that while not radiating heat well, aluminum also does not accept radiant heat well. So painting either of the inner sides of the two skins defeats aluminum’s properties.

I think the best hope for HSC will be as a thermal break painted between the ribs and skins. Further test are needed.

The control is bare aluminum. It does not radiate or accept radiant heat well. Most heat transfers via convection/conduction. The HSC allowed more radiant heat to transfer, hence the elevated temp in that test. I was not expecting this but after I thought about it, it makes sense.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:03 AM   #17
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Marzboy- I will definitely have to check Prodex out. Does it claim to work as sound proofing?

FC7039 - They way I understand it, heat would go through the (exterior) skin, into the ribs and then into the interior skin. If I just paint the exterior skin and all of the ribs, the heat will be stopped from transferring to the interior skin. That way, I won't have to remove the ribs to paint behind them.

Guess what arrived today!
I believe it does help with sound dampening
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:26 AM   #18
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Ugh. So I bought myself a very expensive bucket of white paste
Do you think it could be useful at all? Or should I ship it back?
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:34 AM   #19
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Ugh. So I bought myself a very expensive bucket of white paste
Do you think it could be useful at all? Or should I ship it back?
You might as well use it. I dont think it would hurt. Besides, wont it help with waterproofing? Believe me when it comes to the many projects try not to over think things. There are many phases to these projects. It can make you a little crazy if you let it.
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:39 AM   #20
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If I use it, won't it actually make the trailer hotter than having no insulation at all? A million thanks to FC7039 for performing the test, even though the conclusions made me grumpy
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:22 AM   #21
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If I use it, won't it actually make the trailer hotter than having no insulation at all? A million thanks to FC7039 for performing the test, even though the conclusions made me grumpy
I think if you use it against the aluminum, yes it will make things warmer. I will do more test with combinations.

If it works as a thermal break for the ribs, and if you cannot send your 5 galllons back, I would be willing to buy a gallon or so from you.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:47 AM   #22
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I think there are some other ways to think of this. Snow acts as an insulator once the outside temp reaches freezing. From 32 and up, it will cool things down. Once you reach 32, the snow isn't going to get any colder - think igloos. On the hot side, they make a silicone glove that you can use to put your hand in and grab really hot things. Or, think of a potholder that allows you to carry really hot items. It just doesn't conduct heat that well. The aluminum has very little mass in which to hold heat. When it's in the sun, it just allows that sun to heat up the surface and pass it right through. You need to break up that pass through. I believe what is happening with the white ceramic is that it adds a thermal mass to a metal that didn't have it before, but at some point it acts like the silicone oven mitt. If you're in Texas, and you have a blazing hot sun, it limits the uppper portion - maybe it stops the aluminum from transmitting anything hotter than 110 - so in those cases it prevents you from roasting inside, or allows your air conditioner to actually keep up. However, in more moderate situations, and it's sunny, then the sun goes behind a cloud, the white ceramic will continue to radiate heat inside where normally the outer skin would cool quickly.

Since we can artificially cool or heat the inside, the best option is something that insulates between the inner and outer skins, as well as limiting the radiant transmission of heat. The prodex and other products do have a mylar film to bounce back the radiant heat, but they also contain tons of air filled bubble that provide an air barrier should the mylar reflectiveness fail. The mylar can be used in multiple ways. I thin those in a cold climate would want the shiny side refleted to the inside of the trailer, and those in hot climates point it to the outside. Foam as well could be oriented. In hot climates, the foam is to the inside of the trailer, and in cold climates, to the inside. Best option seems to be the one already listed. Foam with shiny on both sides. If you can squeeze in the prodex with an air space you're good, but if they're touching, you're probably not getting much benefit. (I remember talking with the prodex people a long time ago about my garage door - they indicated backing the prodex with a foam sheet wasn't helpful, and could actually cause more transmission of heat if they touched. - I'm sure if you look up some of the specs on garage door isulation - which this stuff was originally intended for, there might be some helpful studies done in very scientifically controlled conditions.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:40 PM   #23
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" I believe what is happening with the white ceramic is that it adds a thermal mass to a metal that didn't have it before,"

I do not think that it is additional mass (I could be wrong) but radiant heat. I can test this by doubling up the outside skin to be two sheets thick. I think more mass give can off more total heat but in my test the heat source is always present. Once the heat source is removed, the mass will have impact.

No direct conduction exists (i am discounting the skin conducts to air that convects to more air that conducts to the skin). I attribute the increased heat to radiant heat.

Some good reading on the subject
Physics of Foil: Radiant Barrier Stops Heat Gain & Loss in Buildings
SolarRadiationControl.htm
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:29 PM   #24
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FC7039 - Your findings make sense, now that I have read HSC's description. "The seven ceramic compounds used create a barrier to catch and hold heat on the surface of the unit—be it pipe, furnace surface, boiler, etc. Unlike wraps that use air as the insulation component, the ceramic compounds in HSC™ Coating resist absorbing heat trying to come off the surface to escape." Maybe I should have read that in the first place! So HSC would be ideal for a cold weather environment, rather than for trying to keep the temperature down inside the trailer.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:32 PM   #25
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p.s. if anybody is interested in buying 5 gallons of HSC for a discounted rate ($210 plus shipping), let me know in the next few days!
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:24 AM   #26
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FC7039 - Your findings make sense, now that I have read HSC's description. "The seven ceramic compounds used create a barrier to catch and hold heat on the surface of the unit—be it pipe, furnace surface, boiler, etc. Unlike wraps that use air as the insulation component, the ceramic compounds in HSC™ Coating resist absorbing heat trying to come off the surface to escape." Maybe I should have read that in the first place! So HSC would be ideal for a cold weather environment, rather than for trying to keep the temperature down inside the trailer.
I think it would work where you need some insulation but cannot use anything thick. I know they use this and like products (Lizard Skin) on hotrods to insulate metal. This is not aluminum.

I still think the conduction of heat via the ribs is the single greatest source of heat transfer. I will be testing this next. I am hoping HSC will help here as a thermal break. Others I have read have used felt and cork. I was also thinking of a strip of asbestos fire material. I have to source this from somewhere for teting.

I will test HSC's impact when it is combined with other forms of insulation. You never know.
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:44 PM   #27
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I ran a test where I added the bubble foil to the box with the HSC. I did not run it side by side with the control. I just wanted to see if there was any improvment if the HSC was used witgh the foil radiant barrier. After about one hour the temp was 96 which is close what the bubble foil was without the HSC. I did not run the test for two hours.
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:03 PM   #28
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I'm not sure if this is in the right category, but here goes.

After reading Darkspeed's account of painting the interior of his Airstream's outer skin with ceramic insulation, I had a case of the green-eyed gazunga and wanted to do the same on mine. Then I found a thread about painting the roof with Kool-seal to make the roof bearable to sit on. It occurred to me that maybe I could paint the inside of the outside skin (clear as mud, right?) with Kool-seal and it would have the same effect, namely causing the skin to stay cool and better insulate the Airstream. Has anybody tried this? Do you suppose it would work?


I've had an interest in this for a while as well. But, as to the brand-specific Kool Seal the '76 SS I have at present has a layer or two on the roof . . and it runs off with every rain. Makes the stained anodized skin look even worse. I'd be careful about what heat or ozone or pollution do with any of these. I don't know how long this stuff has been on here (could be over 20-years), but I'm not so sure I'd want to have to keep re-doing it every 3-5 years (or?).

Interior spaces may have similar problems. As Darkspeed is an evil genius it may be that he knows something more we do not.

He must have gone snipe hunting with 2Air . . . .

.
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