Belly Pan and Side Wrap Questions

[Re-Pete]

This is for a 1992 29' Excella.

The Shell is off. The frame repairs are nearly complete. It's time to order Belly Pan and Side Wrap materials. And, I'd like some help.

When I removed the water tanks, belly pan, banana wrap and side wrap, everything came off in that order. I was hoping I might be able to install the belly pan and water tanks while I can manipulate the frame, so, before the side wraps.

I'm open to suggestions on materials, tools, work aids, tips and tricks from those who've come before me or have some good general knowledge of whats involved. Like for instance what type and gauge of aluminum, How many Cleco fasteners and pliers. Best type of Rivets, That kind of stuff, you know everything!

Here are some before, during and after shots of the frame:











It's not 100% done. I still need to paint the tongue and the exposed areas of the frame the more carbon tone that is Airstream gray, but we're getting there.

[JeffBear]

Hey Pete,

Great work fixing your trailer! We just finished that process on our trailer too. We had to replace the two front beams. They got really rusty! We just finished painting our trailer with some POR 15 and I'm looking to reattach the belly pan too.

I'm planning to start covering the middle section from the back to the front using 4'x4' or 4'x5' sheets. Then I would do the side wraps with one long piece (cut a 4x12 sheet in two) and finish by reattaching the banana wraps in the angles.

How did it go for you? Any advices (do's or don'ts)? What type of aluminum did you use? And how did you do the tailgate?

Sorry for the long post and the questions :-)
Have a great day,
Geoffrey

[Belegedhel]

I used .032 6061 T6 for mine. The 6061 T6 is quite hard to bend, and I actually had to use my English wheel to get the side wraps to form. I replaced the interior skins of my trailer with 5052, and that is what I would use if I were to redo my belly pan, also in a .032--much more pliable than the 6061 T6.

As far as tip and tricks goes, my original belly pan had a main section that went up the middle of the trailer, from frame rail to frame rail, and then several pieces tacked on to the sides. I think that main middle section was ~56 inches wide, and I couldn't buy anything that wide. The best I could do was 48" wide by 12 in length. So I ran my sheets from side to side in order to cover that 56' length across the middle. It didn't really matter at the end of the day because I added grey tanks and access thereto, so the center section was roughly broken up into 4' lengths anyways.

I see some gantries in you photos, so the next tip I would offer is to put your subfloor down, flip the frame, and then install any insulation under the floor, and all tanks. Finish up by putting your belly pan in place with the frame upside down. I don't recall how many clecos I had on hand, but it wasn't that many, maybe 10 or 20. Your rivets in the belly pan are about 5 inches on center as I recall, and with the frame upside down, gravity is your friend, so you really are just using the clecos to keep the sheet in position while drilling holes.

I used some large head (flange) pop rivets from Vintage Trailer Supply. Heads were almost half an inch in diameter--I don't expect these to pull through the sheet anytime soon!

good luck!

[Re-Pete]

Originally Posted by JeffBear

Hey Pete,

Great work fixing your trailer! We just finished that process on our trailer too. We had to replace the two front beams. They got really rusty! We just finished painting our trailer with some POR 15 and I'm looking to reattach the belly pan too.

I'm planning to start covering the middle section from the back to the front using 4'x4' or 4'x5' sheets. Then I would do the side wraps with one long piece (cut a 4x12 sheet in two) and finish by reattaching the banana wraps in the angles.

How did it go for you? Any advices (do's or don'ts)? What type of aluminum did you use? And how did you do the tailgate?

Sorry for the long post and the questions :-)
Have a great day,
Geoffrey

Hi Geoffrey,
Progress is slow. I have cut to size and dry fitted my belly pan aluminum, but have not installed it yet. We’ve had an unusual amount of rain since November and since we are working outside it has slowed down progress a lot. I ordered out aluminum from www.airpartsinc.com. They were knowledgeable and easy to work with. They understand Airstreams and have a section of their site for them. They helped me figure out what to buy and processed it fast. I had my order in less than a week. I ordered a 4‘x 25’ roll of .025 5052H32 Belly Pan Aluminum. I just checked and their price is the same as last year when I ordered it. As for the side wrap I ordered that through www.odmrv.com. This is the gray aluminum provided by Airstream. It ain’t cheap. Also, I’m pretty sure it’s thinner than the .025. Which I hope translates too easy to work with.
I’m not certain I understand your question regarding the tailgate, but here goes. We welded in some steel sheet metal to make up the bottom of the rear bumper storage compartment. It will require some additional maintenance, paint, etc. but it’s much stronger than the .025 aluminum. I’m ending my belly pan just behind it. I hope this is all somewhat useful.

[Re-Pete]

Originally Posted by JeffBear

Hey Pete,

...I'm planning to start covering the middle section from the back to the front using 4'x4' or 4'x5' sheets. Then I would do the side wraps with one long piece (cut a 4x12 sheet in two) and finish by reattaching the banana wraps in the angles....

Have a great day,
Geoffrey

Hi again Geoffrey,
I noticed that I failed to address, clearly, how I laid out my belly pan. Bear in mind that I’m rebuilding a 29’, 1992 AS, so my chassis may be very different from yours. My chassis frame consists of two 5” x 2”, 1/8” steel tubes connected by thinner (don’t know the gauge) “C” shaped sheet metal cross members spaced approximately 24” or so apart (truthfully that spacing varies considerably).* I checked both ways “front to rear” and “rear to front” and discovered that based on how the cross members were installed it was more economical to lay out my material Rear to Front. Also be sure to measure your cross members spacing on each side of the frame and that includes top side and bottom side if you are flipping the frame as you work on it. The distances change enough to make it a problem if you don’t. At least that was true in my case. The space between my tubes is consistent, about 57” and the previous belly pan spanned approximately 60” side to side mostly covering both tubes, down the middle (once the side wrap is added the tubes will are completely covered. In my case, the original installation, the side wrap was attached to the tubes ahead of the belly pan.) The original belly pan was installed as one long section 60” wide from the first cross member behind the front spare wheel compartment running lengthwise all the way to the front edge of the Fresh Water Tank Holding Pan. There was a very narrow section of aluminum, about 8” x 60” or so, spanning two cross members between the back edge of the Fresh Tank Pan and the front edge of the Gray / Black Tanks Pan. Then there was another long section from the back edge of the Gray / Black Tanks Pan to the rear bumper.
About the only changes I’m making are: I cut my aluminum into 48” long (or shorter, front to back) by 60” wide sections (side to side) over lapping those sections on cross members. I decided to do it this way primarily because I wanted to make it easier to access the area between the belly pan and the sub floor. Having these in 4’ lengths makes this much easier. I’m also not going further than the next to last rear cross member because that last 11” section is where I’ve added the steel sheet metal bottom for my bumper compartment.
*This is does not include the outriggers which are spaced differently and do not always align with the cross members. Also they are not covered by the central belly pan, only the side wrap and the four front and rear plastic Banana Wrap sections.

The 3/16", 1/4" grip Large Flange Aluminum Pop rivets I'm using can be purchased from Albany Fasteners. A good place for nuts. bolts, screws and pop rivets.

Here are some pictures of what I was explaining. Some Pictures

[57Vintage]

I agree with Belegedhel,take advantage of the ability to rotate the frame now. Also, you can get 60" wide 2014 Alclad from Airpartsinc.

https://www.airpartsinc.com/1799_202..._other_RVs.htm

[JeffBear]

Thanks! This is really helpful. I'm getting my aluminum tomorrow and hope to get started this weekend!

[Re-Pete]

Originally Posted by Belegedhel

I used .032 6061 T6 for mine. The 6061 T6 is quite hard to bend, and I actually had to use my English wheel to get the side wraps to form. I replaced the interior skins of my trailer with 5052, and that is what I would use if I were to redo my belly pan, also in a .032--much more pliable than the 6061 T6.

As far as tip and tricks goes, my original belly pan had a main section that went up the middle of the trailer, from frame rail to frame rail, and then several pieces tacked on to the sides. I think that main middle section was ~56 inches wide, and I couldn't buy anything that wide. The best I could do was 48" wide by 12 in length. So I ran my sheets from side to side in order to cover that 56' length across the middle. It didn't really matter at the end of the day because I added grey tanks and access thereto, so the center section was roughly broken up into 4' lengths anyways.

I see some gantries in you photos, so the next tip I would offer is to put your subfloor down, flip the frame, and then install any insulation under the floor, and all tanks. Finish up by putting your belly pan in place with the frame upside down. I don't recall how many clecos I had on hand, but it wasn't that many, maybe 10 or 20. Your rivets in the belly pan are about 5 inches on center as I recall, and with the frame upside down, gravity is your friend, so you really are just using the clecos to keep the sheet in position while drilling holes.

I used some large head (flange) pop rivets from Vintage Trailer Supply. Heads were almost half an inch in diameter--I don't expect these to pull through the sheet anytime soon!

good luck!

Hello Belegedhel,
Thanks for your input and tips. I actually originally posted this thread last year and have made some progress since then. I located my belly aluminum on airpartsinc.com. I bought Clecos on Amazon and I bought my large flange pop rivets from Albany Fasteners. 48" wide aluminum is also what I found available and I used the same thickness, .025, as had been used by Airstream on my Excella. I have made good use of my gantries for rotating my chassis. I can't imagine doing this without them.



What did you end up using to insulate your sub floor?


Pete

Originally Posted by 57Vintage

I agree with Belegedhel,take advantage of the ability to rotate the frame now. Also, you can get 60" wide 2014 Alclad from Airpartsinc.

Originally Posted by 57Vintage

https://www.airpartsinc.com/1799_202..._other_RVs.htm

Hello 57Vintage,

Thanks for your input. Same question I asked Belegedhel, what did you use to insulate your sub floor?

[Re-Pete]

Originally Posted by JeffBear

Thanks! This is really helpful. I'm getting my aluminum tomorrow and hope to get started this weekend!

Good luck Jeff!

[57Vintage]

I didn't insulate the floor. I have a 26' Overlander (which means a 23' shell). I inserted 4 tanks in the floor (1 black water, 2 grey water & 1 fresh water). The layout starting at the rear is black water, access bay, grey water, access bay, grey water, access bay fresh water. Two of the three access bays have plumbing. Basically I could have insulated under the banquette up front and partially the kitchen. Keep in mind on this 50's frame the space is only 4" tall further limiting the ability to insulate around any mechanical components. Just wasn't in the cards.

Here's a photo of the belly pan with color to illustrate mechanical systems taking up most of the space. Yellow is the four tanks, green is waste plumbing and red is conduit for electrical.



The rear access bay is crammed with plumbing. The green line represents the access bay, the brown is the rear bay with black water tank (plumbing upsidedown on work bench before installed)



The areas outside the frame rails has a lot of conduit to run electrical lines in.

[Re-Pete]

Originally Posted by 57Vintage

I didn't insulate the floor. I have a 26' Overlander (which means a 23' shell). I inserted 4 tanks in the floor (1 black water, 2 grey water & 1 fresh water). The layout starting at the rear is black water, access bay, grey water, access bay, grey water, access bay fresh water. Two of the three access bays have plumbing. Basically I could have insulated under the banquette up front and partially the kitchen. Keep in mind on this 50's frame the space is only 4" tall further limiting the ability to insulate around any mechanical components. Just wasn't in the cards.

Here's a photo of the belly pan with color to illustrate mechanical systems taking up most of the space. Yellow is the four tanks, green is waste plumbing and red is conduit for electrical.

Attachment 343978

The rear access bay is crammed with plumbing. The green line represents the access bay, the brown is the rear bay with black water tank (plumbing upsidedown on work bench before installed)

Attachment 343980

The areas outside the frame rails has a lot of conduit to run electrical lines in.

Attachment 343979

Harold or Rebecca,
I like how you ran your electrical. Was the electrical originally run through the outriggers or did you just decide to go that way? Did you run all of your wiring that way or just the running lights, tail lights, etc? All of my wiring was originally run up and along the center above the ceiling skin. I'd love some additional detail if you are able / have the time to provide it. Did you also add solar.

I intend to add solar and lithium batteries. I also intended to exchange my conventional propane furnace and water heating systems for a combined Alde system, but now the only guy there is to busy to return my calls. I was told on Monday that frankly they are just to busy to bother with retrofits. Not the impression I was given last September when I originally contacted them to see if this was possible. At that time I was encouraged to do this. Thinking now I may have to let go of that plan.

[57Vintage]

Keep in mind my 58 had minimal electrical originally. Wiring was run through the walls and ceiling.

Our intent was to keep the interior as original as possible. Most of it was worth restoring. We did not keep the front gaucho, free standing drop leaf table, or the bathroom layout (toilet in shower, sink cabinet and a closet).

We have solar (4-100 watt panels, 2 160aH lithium batteries, Victron Multiplus 300 and all the other controls necessary) We added a propane furnace under the kitchen sink to replace the wall heater, with duct work to all areas. The original 4 burner range with oven/broiler was mechanically rebuilt. The original Krefft frig (propane/120v) was converted to an isotherm unit (12/120v). Solar can keep up while traveling, not a fan of having propane in use while traveling. On demand water heater under the banquette. A macerating pump is used to drain our grey water tanks. The toilet is also macerating. 30 amp shore power replaced the old system (with screw in fuses!).

We were adding a lot of electrical and I did not want to run it all in the walls/ceiling and minimize modifications to the wood cabinets. I also didn't want to have to tear out walls/interior to do any electrical repairs/updates. That was my baseline. The idea of conduit came out of looking at unused space. The outer belly pan areas seemed ideal; hidden & close to walls.

Installing the pvc conduit was tedious. My outriggers are solid metal, no holes. Made a jig to drill pilot holes based on the distance from the frame rail (that works until you get towards the front where the frame rail turns to form the tongue). To access wall and ceiling electrical I used aluminum gas line as conduit to run from the floor to the needed locations (most of this is lighting or receptacles in original locations). A/C, two ceiling fans, 3 ceiling lights, TV coax are in conduit.

gas line: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Alumi...-D-,34277.html

The majority of the electrical is wired with marine grade wire/terminals. Not everyone agrees it is necessary.

Lessens learned:

1. PVC conduit - run 1-1/2" or 2" wherever possible, 1" doesn't hold enough
2. Run more side to side conduit especially where there are multiple electrical on both sides of the trailer in the same area
3. Don't run the smaller sizes of fuel line only use the 5/8"

I still have a couple runs of aluminum conduit on top of the floor where it meets the wall. Reference #1 above. One runs from the rear wall to the curb side door for the macerating toilet electrical (main electrical panel replaced wall heater). One on the street side from rear wall to front wall for the two o/s camera cables (transmitters mounted in front window).

All this is a lot of labor and a fair amount of money for parts, but I can repair/replace/add on fairly easily with little or no removal of interior. I like to try gadgets and keep systems up to date, so my approach is long term. I don't plan on doing another trailer. Going back to cars for future projects.

Can't help you on the Alde system, don't know anything about it.

I would suggest you read through my thread to help make better sense of this as I posted a lot of pictures.

[Re-Pete]

Originally Posted by 57Vintage

Keep in mind my 58 had minimal electrical originally. Wiring was run through the walls and ceiling.

Our intent was to keep the interior as original as possible. Most of it was worth restoring. We did not keep the front gaucho, free standing drop leaf table, or the bathroom layout (toilet in shower, sink cabinet and a closet).

We have solar (4-100 watt panels, 2 160aH lithium batteries, Victron Multiplus 300 and all the other controls necessary) We added a propane furnace under the kitchen sink to replace the wall heater, with duct work to all areas. The original 4 burner range with oven/broiler was mechanically rebuilt. The original Krefft frig (propane/120v) was converted to an isotherm unit (12/120v). Solar can keep up while traveling, not a fan of having propane in use while traveling. On demand water heater under the banquette. A macerating pump is used to drain our grey water tanks. The toilet is also macerating. 30 amp shore power replaced the old system (with screw in fuses!).

We were adding a lot of electrical and I did not want to run it all in the walls/ceiling and minimize modifications to the wood cabinets. I also didn't want to have to tear out walls/interior to do any electrical repairs/updates. That was my baseline. The idea of conduit came out of looking at unused space. The outer belly pan areas seemed ideal; hidden & close to walls.

Installing the pvc conduit was tedious. My outriggers are solid metal, no holes. Made a jig to drill pilot holes based on the distance from the frame rail (that works until you get towards the front where the frame rail turns to form the tongue). To access wall and ceiling electrical I used aluminum gas line as conduit to run from the floor to the needed locations (most of this is lighting or receptacles in original locations). A/C, two ceiling fans, 3 ceiling lights, TV coax are in conduit.

gas line: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Alumi...-D-,34277.html

The majority of the electrical is wired with marine grade wire/terminals. Not everyone agrees it is necessary.

Lessens learned:

1. PVC conduit - run 1-1/2" or 2" wherever possible, 1" doesn't hold enough
2. Run more side to side conduit especially where there are multiple electrical on both sides of the trailer in the same area
3. Don't run the smaller sizes of fuel line only use the 5/8"

I still have a couple runs of aluminum conduit on top of the floor where it meets the wall. Reference #1 above. One runs from the rear wall to the curb side door for the macerating toilet electrical (main electrical panel replaced wall heater). One on the street side from rear wall to front wall for the two o/s camera cables (transmitters mounted in front window).

All this is a lot of labor and a fair amount of money for parts, but I can repair/replace/add on fairly easily with little or no removal of interior. I like to try gadgets and keep systems up to date, so my approach is long term. I don't plan on doing another trailer. Going back to cars for future projects.

Can't help you on the Alde system, don't know anything about it.

I would suggest you read through my thread to help make better sense of this as I posted a lot of pictures.

Thanks, I'll check out your thread.