Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-28-2004, 06:28 AM   #85
Rivet Master
 
87MH's Avatar
 
1978 31' Sovereign
Texas Airstream Harbor , Zavalla, in the Deep East Texas Piney Woods on Lake Sam Rayburn
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,435
Images: 292
Bravo - Copied in "Insulation" thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by malconium
I would be interested in any comments about the tests and the results. I think I will post a new thread about insulation and refer to this red trailer thread. That way people interested in insulation can find it better.

Malconium -

Thanks for your efforts - and sharing them -- I, also, have been wrestling with the decision of "What to do with the roof". I do not anticipate pulling the interior panels, so my focus is on exterior coatings.

"While you are at it"....could you do a comparison on your test stand with a white elastomeric (Kool Seal) type of coating? - maybe two thicknesses?

I am particularly interested in the Kool Seal "RV Rubber Roof TopCoat White Elastomeric #63-900". The appropriate undercoat must also be applied.....of course, they recommend the undercoat to be applied to existing rubber roofs - you would have to get Kool Seal's recommendation as for applications for RV use on an uncoated Aluminum roof.

It would not surprise me if you would contact the manufacturer at http://www.koolseal.com/contact_us.asp and explain what you are doing, (and how many Forumers could potentially use their product) that they would ship you a quart of both (top coat and appropriate primer) for free.

Looking forward to you next results.
__________________

__________________
Dennis

"Suck it up, spend the bucks, do it right the first time."

WBCCI # 1113
AirForums #1737

Trailer '78 31' Sovereign

Living Large at an Airstream Park on the Largest Lake Totally Contained in Texas
Texas Airstream Harbor, Inc.
87MH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2004, 09:18 AM   #86
4 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 472
Images: 17
Send a message via Yahoo to silver suz
My hub has come up with a system of 2 aluminum double bubble layers, seperated by thin strips of styrofoam insulation. (junk left in the loft of the barn) between the inside aluminum wall and the outside wall. He says the critical things are to put some sort of heat blocking strip on the ribs and to make sure that the aluminum panels are sealed together with alum. tape to make the space airtight. The double bubble stuff is aluminum, plastic bubble material, sheet of aluminum foil, another bubble layer, and another layer of foil. We will use 2 of these separated by dead air spaces. Actually the dead air spaces are the best! He has made a test block to make sure it can fit between the inner and outer aluminum walls. The ribs are the weak spots. I'd still be interested in in the painting of the inside of the outer skin. We figure the more insulated, the easier to keep at the temp, that we want. We will use the foilbacked alum paper underneath the wood flooring (3/4" thick plain white oak), as we have in our house (Maybe it was foil on both sides.) Any appliance that gives off heat will be directly vented outside). Also the roof will be mostly covered by solar panels any way.
__________________

__________________
silver suz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2004, 09:24 AM   #87
4 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 472
Images: 17
Send a message via Yahoo to silver suz
OOPS! to continue. I'm making fabric shutters for the windows with 2 layers of the double bubble stuff inside. A humidifyer will take care of inside humidity. Any comments or faults that anyone can see? Yes, this is work intensive, but this is the man who has replaced almost all the rivets. He loves this kind of detail work- sort of meditative for him. I just have to be very patient, hard for a type "A" personality.. Silver suz
__________________
silver suz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2004, 09:49 AM   #88
2 Rivet Member
 
IceKing02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 39
DE-humidifier, right?

Silver Suz,

You meant to say a dehumidifier, did you not? You're making a bid to prevent interior condensation if I read you correctly.
The more that any of these Airstreams are tightened up the more of problem that is experienced with condensation. I've tried holding my breath to prevent this water buildup but have so far awakened unsuccessful...

__________________
"Few things are impossible to diligence and skill" -Samuel Johnson
IceKing02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2004, 12:12 PM   #89
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Silver Suz

Foiled backed anything should not be used on any Airstream or Argosy product, not in the walls, or under the floor.

These areas "must" breathe.

Moisture from humidity as well as cooking gathers in these places. Letting them breathe eliminates any problems.

However, if the breathing is impeded in any way, a collection of moisture will occur, resulting in corrosion within the walls and rusting of the chassis.

Not a good thing.

Andy
__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2004, 12:21 AM   #90
Rivet Master
 
1973 31' Sovereign
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,245
Images: 22
Andy,

How do the normally constructed walls breathe? Are there some intentially designed in places for air to go in and out?

Malcolm
__________________
malconium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2004, 09:36 AM   #91
4 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 472
Images: 17
Send a message via Yahoo to silver suz
Yes, I meant a dehumidifyer- one large enough to do 3 times the cubic footage of my airstream. My house was specially built to be air tight, and to be able to be totally "shut down" for up to 8 hours in case the is some intolerable smell, product etc that could cause me to stop breathing (I'm mostly used to this life so that stuff like this is "normal" for me. In coming air is normally run through filters before circulating through the house. (we have very polluted air and severe pollens) Also we have a heat exchanger and a de humidifyer. The house is steel framed and sealed with the same bubble pack and foil. I'm making the trailer as an escape vechicle that is safe for me, so we are kind of imitating the house.
However I am extremely interested in any problems this method would cause, after all it's our first attempt. We will have proper venting pipes, but with one way flappers. (No gas or propane in this trailer to worry about) and I'll crack a skylight vent open to get filtered air in.) I was thinking of someone's idea (Malcomium?) of having a small wattage fan blowing through the underbelly for circulation. But I don't understand what you mean, Andy, about "filed back anything". Would you please explain more? Thanks, silver suz P.S. I wouln't need all this support when I get to a clean environment and clear out! But I'm still in the "needing a bubble" stage.
__________________
silver suz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2004, 10:05 AM   #92
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by silver suz
But I don't understand what you mean, Andy, about "filed back anything". Would you please explain more? Thanks

Typo's, typo's.

The "filed" should have been "foiled".

Andy
__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2004, 10:28 AM   #93
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Malcolm.

Airstream and Argosy trailers "breathe" in several ways, as manufactured.

The underbelly seams are intentially "not sealed" so that it will allow any trapped moisture to escape. As with any heat-cool cycles, depending on the humidity and temperatures, visible moisture will occur. Allowing the underbelly to breathe, allows that collection of water to escape.

The internal walls, simply by their construction, allows trapped moisture to escape. Cooking certainly adds considerable moisture to the interior, as well as the simple cooling effect after sunset.

The ceiling vent gaskets are "open cell" gaskets, therefore they allow breathing as well.

The refrigerator vent, also permits breathing.

Granted, breathing not only allows the escape of moisture, but it also allows it to enter. If the construction methods did not allow any breathing, the moistures to some degree will still occur, but the escaping of them would be trapped, ultimately leading to corrosion and/or rust.

It is the later, that must be considered, and, avoided.

Andy
__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 02:49 PM   #94
1 Rivet Member
 
Catfisherman's Avatar
 
1974 29' Ambassador
1993 19' "B" Van Airstream 190
Mound City , Kansas
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 16
Send a message via Yahoo to Catfisherman
A little red on airstream

I am looking at just painting the blue trim and lettering red to help match my tow vehicle and toy...they are both red and silver. I took a photo of the airstream then used the paint program to try and picture what it would look like.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	veh & toy 2.jpg
Views:	89
Size:	44.0 KB
ID:	10308   Click image for larger version

Name:	trlr in red.JPG
Views:	106
Size:	45.8 KB
ID:	10309  

__________________
Catfisherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2005, 05:49 PM   #95
4 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 472
Images: 17
Send a message via Yahoo to silver suz
Well, we painted the inside skin white and for some reason the smell is just not airing out (No insulation in yet) My husband did come up with the idea of using plastic pushpins to keep the foil apart. We will see. Meanwhile things have become so drastic here that we bought a new 2004 CCD with no propane ever run in it. It's pretty tolerable to sit in for a couple of hours with filters running. Havent slept in it yet. Meanwhile the composting toilet is working just great in the barn. No odors. suz
__________________
silver suz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 09:30 AM   #96
Rivet Master
 
Zeppelinium's Avatar

 
1975 31' Sovereign
1973 27' Overlander
1977 23' Safari
Palmer Lake , Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,908
Send a message via Skype™ to Zeppelinium
Malcomium! thanks for all the work. You, Andy, and others are to be highly complimented for taking this on.

I've been studying this thread and have some questions. First, when you did the experiment in post #82, with ambient temps around 75 degrees, you got these results:

Quote:
Panel Type Plain White Red Black Foil
------------------------------------------------------------------

Top Temp 79/81 90/89 101/98 78/75 71/68
Bottom Temp 104/97 89/82 90/87 81/81 91/88
I don't understand how the bottom temps, the side that was in shade, would be hotter than the sunlit side (as it is in three out of five cases above).

It also seems to me that without some mechanism for creating a delta T between the two sides (enclose the shaded side in a volume with thermal mass or air conditioning, similar to the suggestion to put the test panels in Andy's window), there wouldn't be any (OK, there would be some just due to the heat absorbtion of the top panel, but it wouldn't be as strong as you would find in the difference between the inside and outside of a normal trailer) thermal transfer forcing function, so the heat flow from the "hot" to "cold" side would be small compared to the conduction/convection of the ambient air.

The other thing I am missing is any discussion of the effects of emissivity versus reflectivity. This applies in two areas. First, in measuring the temperatures with non-contact thermometers, they see total IR, which would be a combination of both the emissions from the surface and the energy from reflection, so it seems to me that the temperatures of the panels should be measured by shielding them temporarily from direct sun radiation and then quickly taking a measurement, in order to get true surface temperature.

Second, the reflectivity of the white elastomeric coating is the primary thermal feature when it's on the outside (top), but its emissivity is the primary feature when it's on the bottom (inside). Oh, plus conductivity, which applies in both cases. Seems to me you'd want high reflectivity if it was outside and low emissivity if it was inside, so maybe white is really optimal for both surfaces (actually, gold is optimal for IR reflectivity, but I think it has to actually be gold, not gold color--ouch--and I assume white is low emissivity because black is generally high emissivity, but performance in the visual spectrum is no predictor of IR performance).

Have there been any more tests?
Zeppelinium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 11:05 AM   #97
Rivet Master
 
Foiled Again's Avatar
 
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Vintage Kin Owner
Virginia Beach , Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,883
Flower painted Argosy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Condoluminum
Oh My...

Please run to an Army Surplus store, buy a military Flak Jacket, and strap it on... You are likely to receive some very passionate messages about your idea to paint the Airstream red... ( I can hardly wait..)
I was just glancing at my latest Blue Beret and on the back inside cover there was an Argosy painted like a garden. Sort of a "by the time we got to Woodstock" look.

It's your Airstream, and you can do what you want with it, however, once painted (once SANDED) it will have to be painted forever. Your resale prospects would probably be nil once you paint it. About six months ago I saw an Avion on eBay that had been beautifully restored, but was painted bright yellow on the outside. I don't think it ever got a bid.

Some folks with damaged skins, or with Argosies have painted them silver, so it can definitely be done. If I were going to paint one, I'd buy an Argosy and paint it, as that won't damage the value that much.

Have fun whatever you do, just think it over a bit before you make a final decision.

Tin Lizzie
__________________
Foiled Again is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2006, 12:34 PM   #98
Rivet Master
 
1973 31' Sovereign
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,245
Images: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeppelinium
Malcomium! thanks for all the work. You, Andy, and others are to be highly complimented for taking this on.

I've been studying this thread and have some questions. First, when you did the experiment in post #82, with ambient temps around 75 degrees, you got these results:



I don't understand how the bottom temps, the side that was in shade, would be hotter than the sunlit side (as it is in three out of five cases above).

It also seems to me that without some mechanism for creating a delta T between the two sides (enclose the shaded side in a volume with thermal mass or air conditioning, similar to the suggestion to put the test panels in Andy's window), there wouldn't be any (OK, there would be some just due to the heat absorbtion of the top panel, but it wouldn't be as strong as you would find in the difference between the inside and outside of a normal trailer) thermal transfer forcing function, so the heat flow from the "hot" to "cold" side would be small compared to the conduction/convection of the ambient air.

The other thing I am missing is any discussion of the effects of emissivity versus reflectivity. This applies in two areas. First, in measuring the temperatures with non-contact thermometers, they see total IR, which would be a combination of both the emissions from the surface and the energy from reflection, so it seems to me that the temperatures of the panels should be measured by shielding them temporarily from direct sun radiation and then quickly taking a measurement, in order to get true surface temperature.

Second, the reflectivity of the white elastomeric coating is the primary thermal feature when it's on the outside (top), but its emissivity is the primary feature when it's on the bottom (inside). Oh, plus conductivity, which applies in both cases. Seems to me you'd want high reflectivity if it was outside and low emissivity if it was inside, so maybe white is really optimal for both surfaces (actually, gold is optimal for IR reflectivity, but I think it has to actually be gold, not gold color--ouch--and I assume white is low emissivity because black is generally high emissivity, but performance in the visual spectrum is no predictor of IR performance).

Have there been any more tests?
The only reason that I can think of why the bottom side would be hotter than the top side would be if the cavity somehow stores up heat. Essentially in the same way that your car gets hotter on the inside when the sun is shining on it.

I do agree that the tests as I did them do not totally reflect (pardon the pun) the reality of an actual airstream installation because nothing is "inside" the trailer. I was not really attempting to do a totally rigorous test but was more interested in a sense of relative difference in the approaches which I think I achieved. It also would appear that since there is a marked temperature differential in my tests that the heat transfer through the panels seems to be more effective than the transfer by ambient air around the panels. One thing that I thought I could do would be to find something like a large cardboard box to mount the panel to. That would allow me to create an inside that was more isolated from the outside.

In general I still think that the tests indicate that we want an outer surface that is as reflective as possible and a skin that is as non-conductive as possible. Shiney aluminum seems to be pretty good at the first but not so good at the second.

When the weather improves around here I would be willing to do some more tests. I still have the panels and the temperature guage. I would love to hear from more people about whether or not they feel more tests are in order and what they would like to have tested. Perhaps those of us that are interested in this topic could colaborate a bit and come up with some testing scenarios?

Malcolm
__________________

__________________
malconium is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Painting Walls of Bambi Marshall44 Upholstery, Blinds, Walls & Interior Finishes 13 04-19-2010 02:25 PM
Painting Airstream Roswell Clearcoat, Exterior Paint & Trim 14 09-01-2004 01:04 PM
Painting the Exterior of an A/S Navigator Clearcoat, Exterior Paint & Trim 25 08-06-2004 09:16 AM
Red plastic trim insert for 1978 International... drboyd Clearcoat, Exterior Paint & Trim 2 09-17-2003 01:47 PM
Red Planet in August COArgosy78 Our Community 6 08-10-2003 01:09 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.