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Old 07-26-2006, 08:40 AM   #57
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just to add...the last time I got tires on the truck, I questioned the guy as he was about to BRRRRRRRRPPTT my lug nuts into oblivion (or so I thought), and he assured me that their guns were set to a low torque, and were just for spinning the nuts on quickly. they always tighten them down with the torque wrench. Then he demonstrated the impact gun for me, by holding the socket while pulling the trigger to show that the torque was low enough that he could prevent the socket from moving with his bare hand.
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Old 07-26-2006, 02:39 PM   #58
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Hello chuck ,
that is correct those guns have 4to 5 levels of torque ,but you do have to watch what is going on with your truck or trailer as the impacting down the
lugs full force is common, unfortunately.


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Old 07-26-2006, 02:49 PM   #59
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I am a fervent strick believer in the manual and proper torque procedures
lugs or head bolts ,flywheel bolts on and on .Always follow the torque
specifications .Today engine head bolts on most engines are (Torque to yield)
and require specific instructions as to how to fasten them down .There is a
design strech built in to the head bolt itself and are a one time use only
as in they are torqued to proper specs ,there is the strech to a certain tolerance and that is it.So when removed they are already "set " to that
predetermined limit of strech and cannot be reused.Anyway ,has no bearing
on lug nuts ,they should never be streched period .As for airstreams ,it seems
some level of uncertainty in lug torque for the aluminum wheels.hope we
can figure it out .

Scott
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Old 07-26-2006, 09:18 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZstreamin
.... and 2. I have the exact same AS as Rich and his family. So I checked the ol' manual because I have conflicting feedback from several places as to how much is too much or to little torque? I've never been one to worry about nuts and how much too torque...

It says
WARNING it is also important to periodically check on the tightness of lug nuts. They should be tightened to a torque of 110-120 ft. pounds on forged aluminum wheels and 90-95 ft. lbs on steel wheels Care should be taken at all times when handling the forged aluminum wheel because of possible damage to its appearance.

Now I believe my wheels are aluminum. Is that what would come with the Safari LS package? It seems hard to believe that some of the Aluminum wheels on recent models would be 85lbs torque and yet others alum wheels 120lbs.. That’s a big difference and enough to get someone in trouble. I would almost guarantee most shops would not know whos got 85ers and whos got 120ers.. they just let the airgun rip..
When I first got our 30' Safari I had problems with it wanting to wanter around the lane, I believe it to be sway. One of the first things that was recommended to me on this site was to torque the lug nuts so I purchased a torque wrench and checked the owner's manual to see what they should be torqued to. Brent you are correct. Per the Airstream brochure, the LS package comes with aluminum wheels. To back you up I have scanned page D-4 from the 30' Safari owners manual below. The owner's manual says 110-120 ft.lbs. I thought this was high, but I set the torque wrench on 120 and found that the lugs were probably at 110 because there was only a little turn on each before the wrench clicked and "slipped".

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Old 07-27-2006, 12:25 AM   #61
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After reading that very informative label ,I must ask why would there be
so many instances to check the lug nuts .Giving the nuts a check after
a new purchase makes total sense and following the label instructions as
is specified .My meaning now about that statement is that there seems to
be alot of loosening possible ,and I bet inspecting after a long braking decent
means you may find missing lug nuts ,or none at all ,such as rich has found out.This kind of thing does not usually happen on motor vehicals or
airstream motor homes with the alcoa wheels or any vehical I have owned
or worked on with aluminum wheels .Maybe Inland Andy might have some info
he could share on the subject ,in any event ,I don't like it whatsoever .
Personally if I have to check the lug nuts all thru the week on a vacation ,
I would take the steel wheels like my 60 has, check them periodically and
not have to worry about the wheels coming off .

Scott
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Old 07-27-2006, 12:34 AM   #62
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Question...what is considered excessive braking? I do normally like to drive slow enough to coast to a stop but... well at least some might think it seems I go that slow.
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:37 AM   #63
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Well I would say excessive, meaning the trailer brakes were doing most
of the work ,as the trailer we all are discussing is big and heavy and the
tv is small ,it is a nissan suv .The hydralic brake system with the discs may
be being overheated ,but it is a big trailer so you have to slow it down .
Of course the long decent ,brakes applied even moderatley for extended
time ,the tv needs to be capable of having a lower gear to pull down in
as well and a controlled slow decent (spelled decent wrong )the brakes can
still reach a high temperature level ,so having them applied as such as too
not have them doing heavy braking all the time .I also like to slow down
early to a stop ,save the trailer brakes .I can have the travelall in third gear
(manual truck 5 speed) going down a moderate grade and not have to use
the brakes very much at all ,let the tv help you .so thats the idea on the
excessive braking ,now my airstream is 24ft not 30 either ,again tv needs
to be able to handle the trailer.

Scott
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Old 07-27-2006, 02:16 AM   #64
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hi carol and others...

normal braking might be consider the sort of braking one does
on flats and at stop lights or signs...
like driving in your neighborhood...well not my neighborhood...yours.

so imagine daily driving or towing and the amt of time spent braking...

excessive braking then would be times that exceed this usual amount....

but it shouldn't be considered 'un necessary braking'....
we all want to stop in time right?

like descending a long twisty 2 laner with lots of switchbacks or hairpins.

or in congested freeway traffic where one speeds up only to quickly slow down frequently...

like riding the brakes....

or when ya hook up the airstream
and go to the local 'fast and furious' match races on friday nites....

so excessive could be the amount of time spent on the brakes
or the degree of force applied to the brakes....

or it could just be a lawyer escape phrase....
to protect a/s from customers with wheels falling off!

rich has a hensley arrow too (haha)
and when decending this hitch works better
if/when the trailer brakes tug back a little on the tv...
instead of pushing the tv...
did you get a hensley?

here are some pictures of excessive braking...
i've had mine this hot...
not on the trailer, yet
but on the track cars...you bet!

cheers
2air'
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:06 AM   #65
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it's strange the wide variance in the torque requirements. I checked the owners manual on our 2005 CCD and it states 85 ft lbs for aluminum wheels and 95 ft lbs for steel wheels. I checked the torque and sure enough about 3 of the six on each wheel were very slightly under the spec. The coach has been pulled about 2,500 miles since they were last retorqued. Ours also has the disk brakes and Hensley installed by the dealer that did the Tour of America trailer and a good bit of that 2,500 miles involved some driving through the mountains of Colorado.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:45 AM   #66
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What I don't see here is much discussion of the precision needed for the proper torque. There may be a clue in the 90 for steel and 120 for Al but that still doesn't help to understand just how paranoid one should be. Most problems seem to be severe excess, such as 300 lb-ft and that is only likely to be from shoddy shopwork. Lugs working loose is probably second on the frequency of failure list and that is easier to deal with.

The lug bolts on my '75 have the torque stamped on the head. That helps.

A friend has lost three wheels so far on her '78 - usually after doing a bearing job or other wheel work. That seems to be due to not checking the lugs after a few miles.

To my, one indication of a good shop is that they pay attention to the order in which they tighten lugs and to setting them to the right torque.

But on the road, I think it sufficient to just use a decent wrench and the muscle techique. It is very hard to significantly overtighten the lugs but it is fairly easy to tighten up loose ones. If the last shop didn't over tighten the lugs then your only road problem is likely to be them loosening. This is easily detected and fixed by a quick tug on the wrench.

So the guidelines I follow are to

1) make sure anyone who removes and replaces the wheels does so properly and sets the lug torque correctly and knows what they are doing.

2) check the hubs and lugs after any wheel work after just a few miles

3) use at least a wrench and tug to make sure the lugs aren't getting loosened.

4) check the hubs and tires when convenient after runs for any significant temperature variations

5) check the lugs (wrench and tug, at least) from fairly frequently after wheel work to every couple of days or after severe runs after you know things are stable.

6) be able to see the tires in the corner of the mirrors and keep an eye on them, especially during turns when you can see all of them.

7) check tire pressures frequently - I like to run mine at max sidewall PSI.

8) be aware of any changes in handling to help detect problems promptly.

9) make it a habit, along with other necessary hitch and vehicle checks.
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Old 07-27-2006, 10:07 AM   #67
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Seems that we all need to add a little gizmo to the trailers standard equipment: A torque wrench, and a good quality socket.
I use this one, have been for over 10 years: http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...seBVCookie=Yes
For budget conscious travellers, Harbor Freight has these ones:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...itemnumber=239
I believe that even if they're not 100% accurate, one can achieve specified torque settings evenly on all wheel studs or lug bolts.
I have never lost a wheel, or broken a stud by means of and tightening with a torque wrench. After installation of new wheels on new axles last year, I have yet to find a single lug nut out of spec. I wonder where the discrepancies that others have suffered arrive from? I suspect over torque, and/or substandard hardware.
All of this can be easily avoided in less than 5 minutes by checking the wheel fasteners, and using a torque wrench to do so. Loosen first slightly, and then tighten to the specified torque.
A quick solution now to what might be a huge problem later.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:17 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
After reading that very informative label ,I must ask why would there be
so many instances to check the lug nuts .
Maybe Inland Andy might have some info
he could share on the subject ,in any event ,I don't like it whatsoever .
Personally if I have to check the lug nuts all thru the week on a vacation ,
I would take the steel wheels like my 60 has, check them periodically and
not have to worry about the wheels coming off .

Scott
The number 1 (one) cause for lug nuts becoming loose, is lack of "proper" running gear balance.

This subject goes on and on about all the funny things that happen to wheels.

Proper balancing of the running gear will stop more than 99 percent of tire, wheel, and/or lug nut failures.

Granted, over worked brakes cause considerable heat, that in turn transfers to the lug nuts. However, steel expands when it's temperature is elevated, therefore if the lug nuts are properly installed, they should not fail simply because of them becoming over heated.

Toss in lack of proper running gear balance, and all kinds of crazy, unexplained things happen.

Rich Luhr, did you have the running gear properly balanced??

Andy
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:22 AM   #69
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Be careful with facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
Pahaska , Rich's mention of the retorque when the discs were installed seems to counter the impact wrench theory he has since you had yours done at the same place ,who I wonder used the impact wrench? I do agree as I said NO to impact wrench on tightening lug nuts ,period thats it .You have had no trouble ,and he found 3 wheels loose ??? somthing doesn't add up .

Scott
You need to go back and CAREFULLY reread Rich's BLOG. There were thousands of trouble-free miles on the retorque that was done when the disks were installed. The failure occurred 50 miles after wheel replacement resulting from a flat tire. Rich plainly said that the wheels were re-torqued 50 miles prior to the failure by the service guy who replaced the tire. That is the obvious cause of the problem. There was no indication of high temperatures on the studs or the hubs.

The fact is that my friend with the 2-year old Classic Limited 31 had stretched studs immediately after his wheeels were rotated. These were Airstream OEM studs with thousands of trouble-free miles and only a few miles before being discovered when he installed Centramatics. That certainly casts strong doubt on the theory that the disk hubs somehow had sub-standard studs that were the cause of the problems and supports the theory that the studs were simply overtorqued with an air wrench.

This thread has gone off in 10 different directions; most not supported by facts.
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:34 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
The number 1 (one) cause for lug nuts becoming loose, is lack of "proper" running gear balance.

Rich Luhr, did you have the running gear properly balanced??

Andy
Rich has Centramatics. They were installed along with the disk brakes. I had the Centramatics put on my trailer when I had disks installed as well and at the same shop. Having had Centramatics on two trailers now, I would not worry about out of balance conditions on his trailer.

To indicate how smooth the Centramatics are, I just discovered thiis morning that a forgotten bottle of shower spray had remained upright on the seat in the shower for over 300 miles, just where I had placed it.
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