Lug nut torque and never seize ??

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by Bob662

I'm a bit surprised by the many who say no way, no time, never ever use lube on lug nuts. I get it that the dry torque values can't be used with lubes for the reasons previously stated, but if the dry torque values are properly adjusted down (-20% for oil, -30 to 35% for grease and -40% for Never Seize), what's the problem?

Also, since only 10% of applied torque is used to tighten the bolt (the rest overcomes friction: 40% on the nut face and 50% on the threads), to say a little Never Seize on the lug nut face doesn't change anything is, I believe, incorrect.

Can someone show me the error of my thinking?

GIVE THIS MAN AN ICE-CREAM-CONE!
HE'S GOT IT EXACTLY RIGHT!
NO ERROR THERE, BOB!

One thing that I do practice; is to coat the back of the aluminum wheel with C-5, Colloidal Copper, (or Never Seize), to prevent the wheel sticking greatly to the steel brake face. (Keeping it off the threads, of course.)
Doing means that you don't have to 'Whang' it, (the wheel), with a big rubber mallet, or wooden beam to loosen it from the brake.

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by Action

The error is the spec given is on clean dry threads.

It is like checking tire pressure at the end of the day after a long run. You are going to get a pressure. And there is no published pressure spec for a hot tire.

By reducing the torque with lubricant you are creating your own spec. I can not say if Airstream does testing. Car manufactures do testing of this type all the time. They spend millions in design and testing and pay millions in law suit settlements if they get it wrong.

To answer your question, "Can someone show me the error of my thinking?"

Since the procedure you suggest is different from the manufacturer, what testing have you done? What research can you produce to show that the manufacturers method can be over looked? How did you come to those percentages?

There is a thread here by an owner that picked up a AS that had anti-seize on the threads of the lugs. The lug nuts loosened and he lost some. Even after repeated cleanings lug nuts loosening was still an issue to some degree.

You can do what you wish on your vehicle. For me I will stick with the manufacturers recommendations for lug nut torqueing.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

WRONG ANSWER! READ BOB's POST AGAIN AND ABSORB WHAT HE'S SAYING!

[markdoane]

Originally Posted by MelGoddard

WRONG ANSWER! READ BOB's POST AGAIN AND ABSORB WHAT HE'S SAYING!

That's a strange response. I read both posts and it seems to me Action was only asking for test results to back up the claims, and why the manufacturers recommendations should be disregarded.

[Mollysdad]

Having spent some time around boats, I can tell you what's happening is electrolysis, not corrosion.
I used never seize if I was using stainless screws into aluminum.
Whenever you have dissimilar metals and salt or salt water, you've created a battery. Ions of the sacrificial metal flow to the other (anode).
Without never seize, they literally weld themselves together.
I have broken fasteners rather than have them unscrew.

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by mollysdad

having spent some time around boats, i can tell you what's happening is electrolysis, not corrosion.
I used never seize if i was using stainless screws into aluminum.
Whenever you have dissimilar metals and salt or salt water, you've created a battery. Ions of the sacrificial metal flow to the other (anode).
Without never seize, they literally weld themselves together.
I have broken fasteners rather than have them unscrew.

true!

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by markdoane

That's a strange response. I read both posts and it seems to me Action was only asking for test results to back up the claims, and why the manufacturers recommendations should be disregarded.

I also follow the manufacturers recommendations, if for no other reason than 'legalities.'
Being a former agent for Premier Fastener Corp. (Cleveland, OH.), I received a rather comprehensive education on the use of threaded fasteners. In Aviation, that knowledge was amplified and confirmed. However.........................
When using that knowledge of thread lube on my vehicles, (successfully), I ran into the lack of knowledge of the average auto mechanic, who believe that an air driven 'impact gun' is God's gift to mechanics.
BIG MISTAKE. Many times 'they' have a dim knowledge of a torque wrench.
There were 'fireworks' at times over the damage that this 'MOGES' caused, and I learned to just use the dry torques that the mfg'rs called for, for the average 'joe mechanic' to use. Even then..........

The reason that I used lube torque in the first place, was to make it easier for my late wife to change a flat tire, when I wasn't there. (she was handy that way.)
Now I joined CAA, and let 'them' do the job. (Under my supervision of course,)Getting lazy that way.

[Smartstream]

Not trying to be a trouble maker but the correct way to measure if the proper amount of effort is put on a fastener is to measure the stretch of the fastener. When you tighten a nut on a bolt or a stud you stretch that bolt or stud. That is what holds the parts you are trying to keep together.

Now trying to get your micrometer through your brake drum or rotor and around the tire to measure the stretch can be difficult so they came up with the idea of twisting torque as a satisfactory method of measuring bolt stretch. As you can see the method leads to lots of controversy. Something not mentioned is how accurate is your torque wrench? When was the last time you had it calibrated?

Another very accurate method is to measure the rotation of the nut. If you have a fastener with 20 threads per inch we know that one rotation will stretch the fastener 1/20" or .050". Or 180 degrees of rotation will stretch the fastener .025". The difficult part is to turn the nut on far enough to have the wheel against the hub and the nut against the wheel without any stretch on the fastener so that we have an accurate starting point to calculate our degrees of rotation.

That being said I personally have tightened many lug nuts for many years without the benefit of a torque wrench and fortunately with no failures. Today with alloy wheels I do use a torque wrench.

[tjdonahoe]

I have always used a small amount of anti-seize on the threads and not on the ball and seat on all my vehicles, I never had any problems with them coming loose, and I will keep doing so.

[dznf0g]

Guys, this really shouldn't be a controversial subject. For any given application, consult the owner or service manual. If it says torque dry, torque dry and clean. If it says to use a substance on the fastener and torque to spec, then do that. As Dan says above, the engineers have set a torque spec to accommodate a desired and necessary material stretch and clamping force specific to their tightening procedure and application.

[r carl]

Many years I seen gas stations only impact lug nuts. I noticed they starting using torque wrenches when aluminum wheels became popular. I've never had a anti seized nut come loose on me. I've had stud threads damaged because of no lube though. I've seen anti seize stay on threads and protect in excess of 5yrs.

[J-Dog]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

I have always used a small amount of anti-seize on the threads...

After I read that post, a Billy Idol song came to mind.... "With a Rebel Yell, more, more, more..."

...and then it was a Tom Petty song... "and one foot on the pedal, I was born a Rebel!"

[MelGoddard]

Originally Posted by Smartstream

Not trying to be a trouble maker but the correct way to measure if the proper amount of effort is put on a fastener is to measure the stretch of the fastener. When you tighten a nut on a bolt or a stud you stretch that bolt or stud. That is what holds the parts you are trying to keep together.

Now trying to get your micrometer through your brake drum or rotor and around the tire to measure the stretch can be difficult so they came up with the idea of twisting torque as a satisfactory method of measuring bolt stretch. As you can see the method leads to lots of controversy. Something not mentioned is how accurate is your torque wrench? When was the last time you had it calibrated?

Another very accurate method is to measure the rotation of the nut. If you have a fastener with 20 threads per inch we know that one rotation will stretch the fastener 1/20" or .050". Or 180 degrees of rotation will stretch the fastener .025". The difficult part is to turn the nut on far enough to have the wheel against the hub and the nut against the wheel without any stretch on the fastener so that we have an accurate starting point to calculate our degrees of rotation.

That being said I personally have tightened many lug nuts for many years without the benefit of a torque wrench and fortunately with no failures. Today with alloy wheels I do use a torque wrench.

Hey Dan;
You're good!
Another man who's earned an 'ice cream cone'.
And my torque wrench's were required to be calibrated yearly; as per Transport Canada rules.
(But not now; I'm retired.)