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Old 11-08-2006, 12:44 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosetags
I have been torquing the lugs to 115 foot pounds because my Airstream Manual says to tighten to 110 to 120 foot pounds, so I spliit the difference and use 115. Are you guys saying that 115 is too tight? I would like to know what you recommend. My '05 25' Safari has the standard alloy wheels.
Hi, 115 lbs is perfect. I personally like to go to the high side 120 lbs on my '05 25' Safari. The wheel chart that 2air re-mentioned shows my wheel at 115 lbs. I call that the happy medium; this goes back to your torque. Once again, several answers can and are correct.

Bob
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:15 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
ok tork nuts....

the original poster asked a specific question...it was answered i think.

later someone asked if 115 was correct for their unit...

zoom zoom posted this MOST USEFUL page for the a/s service manual....

here are the torque specs for all modern wheels....

http://www.airforums.com/forum...05-post81.html

its a good page and the most useful post in the other long thread on this topic.......

find your wheels and take notes....

cheers
2air'
Now that's what I'm talking about!

This is exactly what I meant. Nearly each wheel style has a different torque range. All of which, BTW, are more than 70 ft-lbs. and way less than 200 ft-lbs.

The OP needs to either look in his/her owner's manual for the appropriate torque or find their wheels in the chart 2air linked and go by that range.

I try to remember to check the torque on my wheels and hitch before we leave on every trip. So far they haven't lost much tightness. It is a practice I should strive even harder to adhere to. BTW, I didn't own a torque wrench until I bought my Airstream. It was $100+a deepwell socket set well spent!
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:22 AM   #31
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Like Vajeep , I also have a '76 . The manual states 90-95 lbs for both aluminum and steel wheels . Mine are the aluminum and they are definately Not hub centric . There is a cone cover that that fits in the center of the wheel . Since the proper torque depends on a certain amount of stretch in the lug or bolt could it be that the variance in torque specs has more to do with the lug material ( grade ) than the wheel itself ? It is also important that the threads be clean and screw on easily in order to get a proper torque reading .
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:42 AM   #32
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Even more critical than our trailer wheels are the dual wheels on many of our heavier tow vehicles - especially after the wheels have been recently removed and reinstalled. Apparently dual wheels tend to loosen up because of the interaction between the two rims sandwiched together. I check mine often - and I have found differences subsequent to prior checks. I do believe that investing in a good torque wrench - and the correct sockets - is worthwhile. I carry mine with me when we travel.

As for the 450 ft lbs required for the trailer ball, I achieve that using a 2'-0" cheater bar on my cresent wrench, with the hitch turned sideways in the receiver. Since I tip the scales at about 225, my weight on the end of the bar, while horizontal, gives me the required torque. This also works to satisfy the torque requirements on the adjusting bolts of the Reese hitch - which, fortunately, just happen to require 300 ft lbs. In this case, my breaker bar provides the 1'-4" length and, again, my 225 lb bulk does the rest. The important thing is to not "bounce" on the cheater/breaker bar when using this technique. If I lose or gain weight, I'm going to have to re-calculate everything!!! I inquired about a torque wrench capable of producing the higher torque values just discussed and found that said wrench would only be found in large truck shops - at a cost of over $500.00! It's not an item normally carried by your local NAPA distributor.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:05 PM   #33
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Hi,Cracker. First off, 450 lbs is way too much torque while useing a cresent wrench and a cheater bar. Best to find a socket or a boxed end wrench. Rather than buying a 600 lb torque wrench try useing a torque multiplier for these high torques.

Bob
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Old 11-09-2006, 12:15 AM   #34
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Quote:
This is foolish advise. The tollerance is not wide.
I think that this manner of disagreement is not constructive.

The tolerance as indicated in context was appropriate. I described why. Calling that foolish and wrong with no similar rationale serves no purpose and helps no one understand the problem better or its solution.

Yes I know that there are some folks who measure everything to a gnat's ass and put written spec up as a holy grail. That's fine. But don't foist it on everyone else as absolutely necessary. Much of what we deal with in trailers has a lot of lattitude as can be seen by anyone observing actual practice. Every spec has both an accuracy and a precision involved and it is not understanding this or what these are that send many on wild goose chases.

We have one member in our Unit who has lost three wheels so far on her trailer over 20 years or so. Why? One reason was not making sure that the shops doing tire or wheel work set the torque properly. Another reason was that she didn't do a basic torque check after a few miles on the road.

Yes you want to make sure that your lugs are properly torqued as much as you want to make sure they are tightened in the proper order on wheel re-installs. But once on the road, you don't need that degree of precision. You just need to make sure that they aren't coming loose and that doesn't take a torque wrench. If they are getting loose, you can stop by a good tire shop to set the torque properly after you have given them a grunt tightening with the lug wrench. Any good tire shop should do that for you as a courtesy.

So, please, get off your high horse. Get down to the planet with real people on it. Consider the difference between what is necessary, what is nice, and what is getting really really picky. IMHO it is a bad thing to go harping on a typical user without making such distinctions.

Now, if you want an example of constructive 'disagreement' take a look at the clarification on aluminum versus steel wheels. That's good stuff that helps people understand why torque specs can vary and what is involved. People can learn something from that.

BTW. Thanks 2air for the reference to that spec sheet. That's a handy reference and its discoverer deserves proper recognition.
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Old 11-09-2006, 12:33 AM   #35
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I believe that what needs to be done is to RESOLVE the wheel coming off
issue once and for all ,thats the real problem ,all this talk on torquing and all
is not stopping the problem is it? Why is the question that only these trailer wheels are coming off ?? doesn't anyone want to really get to the real problem ? Ive mentioned on the fact that no automotive or truck wheels are coming off at any time ,all aluminum ,it is not just the lug torque thats the
trouble .Id chuck the fancy wheels then and get correct fit steel wheels
and be done with it .I just checked the steel wheels on my 60 trdwnd and
after 5000 miles or more ...they are still tight period. i can't see these ladys
going around there trailers torqing the wheels every outing and hoping the wheels stay on the trailer .Its totally ridiculouse at this point to be having
this happening ,someone will get hurt sooner or later thats a fact after there
wheels come off ,Rich Lhur lost 3 on one outing ,and not the steel spare
that stayed on the trailer .

Scott
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Old 11-09-2006, 08:26 AM   #36
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Wrench Use

[quote=ROBERTSUNRUS] Hi,Cracker. First off, 450 lbs is way too much torque while useing a cresent wrench and a cheater bar. Best to find a socket or a boxed end wrench. Rather than buying a 600 lb torque wrench try useing a torque multiplier for these high torques.

Bob [/quot

Robert:

I hope that I won't have to change the ball again anytime soon - but your advice is appreciated! Since torque multipliers, sockets large enough for the ball nut, and the related breaker bar or, better yet, the box end wrench you mentioned, are all expensive tools - to only be used on rare occasions - what about using a large pipe wrench in combination with the cheater pipe??? Are your concerns those of a first class mechanic who doesn't want to damage the equipment - or more along the lines of safety? I can see where either the cresent wrench or the pipe wrench could create a false torque due to "squeezing" the nut - but would that be significant on such a large nut??? It's hard to change the "make do" habits of an old shade tree Model A Ford mechanic - but I'm listening!
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Old 11-09-2006, 09:39 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
I think that this manner of disagreement is not constructive.

The tolerance as indicated in context was appropriate. I described why. Calling that foolish and wrong with no similar rationale serves no purpose and helps no one understand the problem better or its solution.
I stand by my assessment of your advise as foolish. I gave my justification why I feel that way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
Yes I know that there are some folks who measure everything to a gnat's ass and put written spec up as a holy grail. That's fine. But don't foist it on everyone else as absolutely necessary. Much of what we deal with in trailers has a lot of lattitude as can be seen by anyone observing actual practice. Every spec has both an accuracy and a precision involved and it is not understanding this or what these are that send many on wild goose chases.

We have one member in our Unit who has lost three wheels so far on her trailer over 20 years or so. Why? One reason was not making sure that the shops doing tire or wheel work set the torque properly. Another reason was that she didn't do a basic torque check after a few miles on the road.
Are you an engineer? Do you design automotive/trailer "running gear" for a living? I don't so I leave it up to the experts.

You just gave a very good example of what happens when you don't follow the owner's manual's recommendations and then turn around and say it is hogwash to follow the owner's manual.

The information in the owner's manual is there for a reason. It is for safety. Yes, there are margins for error there that can be circumvented for a time without a major mishap, but do you really want someone to take your advise and use torque numbers you pulled out of your @$& and wind up getting hurt or having major damage to their Airstream on the first outing? How would you feel if it happened? That's like playing Russian Roulette. It's a gamble I wouldn't want to take.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
Yes you want to make sure that your lugs are properly torqued as much as you want to make sure they are tightened in the proper order on wheel re-installs. But once on the road, you don't need that degree of precision. You just need to make sure that they aren't coming loose and that doesn't take a torque wrench. If they are getting loose, you can stop by a good tire shop to set the torque properly after you have given them a grunt tightening with the lug wrench. Any good tire shop should do that for you as a courtesy.
I agree here to a certain extent. You do need to keep a check on the lug nuts while you travel and finding a loose one would be an area of concern, but at the same time you do need to make sure they are tight to the proper degree. I was surprised how little force was required on the torque wrench to reach the 110 ft-lb torque. I thought it would require me to strain, but it didn't. I can see how easily I could have over tightened the lugs thinking I really needed to apply a lot of force on a lug wrench to reach a big number like 110! Again, over tightening is what caused the studs on Rich Luer's trailer to fail. The recommended range for tightening the lugs has only a 10 to 15 ft-lb window for most aluminum wheels on Airstreams. This doesn't allow for much room for grunt tightening.

It would be nice if the wheels on Airstream trailers was as simple to maintain as the wheels on our automobiles and trucks. I have no idea why they aren't. Maybe it is because each wheel carries a heavier load than each wheel of a passenge car does. Maybe it is because with so many trucks and cars built each year there is enough R & D money to perfect (figuratively speaking) the wheels that go onto them. Maybe it is because the tires on a trailer are constructed differently that auto tires, who knows. Maybe it is because the suspension of a trailer is different than the suspension of an automobile or truck. All I know is that trailers have more crucial specs and more exacting standards to maintain for safety. I'm not willing to chuck that out the window because someone whose name I don't even know thinks he knows more than the engineers who wrote my owner's manual and who says it isn't even necessary to follow what the engineers have written for my safety.

I'm sure there will be a rebuttle to this. I don't plan on replying if there is. I've said my peace and further comment won't be constructive and will only be aurgumentative. If you feel you need the last word, Leipper, and want to have it, be my guest.
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Old 11-09-2006, 10:39 AM   #38
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"If you feel you need the last word, Leipper, and want to have it, be my guest."

I am very sorry you take it this way and insist upon an incorrect reading of what I offered and have decided to engage upon the ad hominem and other destructive 'debate' this way.

I would like to understand why some folks insist upon misperceptions about what was written in order to take offense and then also insist on attacking others rather than trying to understand what was offered. What is the deal here? Why the hostility?
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Old 11-09-2006, 10:52 AM   #39
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Quote:
I believe that what needs to be done is to RESOLVE the wheel coming off issue once and for all ,thats the real problem
Maybe this is like asking for a solution to the engine lubrication and wishing we could eliminate routine oil changes?

Quote:
It would be nice if the wheels on Airstream trailers was as simple to maintain as the wheels on our automobiles and trucks. I have no idea why they aren't.
I think Andy has a lot to offer here that can be inferred from his comments about vibration and trailer behavior.

There are a lot of ways that could be used to reduce or eliminate lug loosening so it is also interesting that none of these are being used. Locktite? Double nutting? Finer threads? And what about those backwards threaded lugs used on some trailers?

I do not think that the typical use patterns for trailers that lead to the recommendation for annual repacking and tire aging are a factor here. There is also the idea that the differences may be more a matter of degree than kind.

The sad part IMHO is that a pursuit of clarifying why trailer lugs are problematic is inhibited by flat assertions and anger argument.
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:28 AM   #40
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This thread has taken the ugly turn to arguement land and disrupts the
purpouse of the thread . Its too bad because we all are working towards a common goal and all posts are made to get the thought processes going
wether we can agree or not .Im sure if we can get the wheels to stay in place we would all be happier ,Id just like to go farther to eliminate the
catastrophy that has and will continue to occur as these wheels keep coming
loose . any way Ive said what I could on this subject ,hopefully at least we have the ideas floating around at this point .


Scott
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:40 AM   #41
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There is a basic rule for wheel torgue I learned from My local Les Swab dealer. If you don't have a manaul or instuctions on the wheel, lugs etc as to torgue. All Car type aluminum wheels (ie Airstream) should be torqued at 90 lbs. Truck tires on heavy duty pickups should be torqued at 110 lbs. duallys should be torqued at 125 lbs. Don't use an air wrench to tighten up the lugs on Anything. If you do.....warped rotors are soon to follow. check the torque of a newly installed wheel at 50 miles. After this....once a month for torque and air. BUT....WALK AROUND YOUR VEHICLE EVERY DAY WITH A TIRE THUMPER AND USE IT AND YOUR EYES.
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Old 11-09-2006, 02:34 PM   #42
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Based on the fact that Airstream doesn't even know within two inches what the coupler height on my 2002 Safari is, or the weight within 500#, why would I expect them to know the proper lug torque. I believe what DFord79 just posted is very good advice.

I always use a CP 734 air impact with the proper torque stick to install wheels on my TV, cars and trailer. Never have found one loose when checked.

Always try to thump and feel temp at each stop.
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