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Old 11-06-2006, 11:32 PM   #15
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Torque

I always try to check everything before I go on a trip.Even the bolts on my Vehicle.You just cant ever be to safe.
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Old 11-06-2006, 11:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
This problem is seemingly specific to trailers with aluminum wheels .Ive followed alot of threads on this ,and its not a steel whell problem. I do not
recommend going 115 ft lbs ,when torqueing any fastener more is NOT better.
already we have too many incidences where these wheel studs are breaking
off with the aluminum wheels .I do say to check them as routine ,but not give
them a " little more " each time unless they are below the torque value as
each little bit more just to be sure can over torque and stretch the stud and
it can break .What really bothers me is that these wheels seem to be so
problematic on these trailers .I work with car and truck aluminum wheels
everyday constantly ,Never are the aluminum wheels / nuts ever loose .
never had any aluminum wheel on a honda ,nissan, toyota ,or chevy suburban ,chrysler ,or ford come off the vehical ,so this deal with these
nuts being loose is a concern .Has anyone ever bought a new vehical and
drove it home and retorqued the wheels once a week ?? does anyone check
the wheels on their civic before they head off to a trip somewhere? Nope
and they shouldn't need to .I don't like the whole idea of this thing with
these aluminum wheels coming loose . Its not right .

Scott
One possible theory is that the wheel studs are not seated properly inside the hub when new. Then, slowly but surely, the studs pull into the hub, increasing the effective outside length of the stud, and therefore loosening the lug to a point of failure. Crude parts, poor balance, and sloppy attitudes towards "trailer parts" are to blame for this, in my opinion. Why else would there be trailer brake drums that are so severely out of balance that it takes 3+ oz to make them run smoothly?
In my case, I checked the lug nuts several times, and never had one loosen up. (yet...) I do use aluminum wheels with steel inserts where the wheel studs go throught he center of the wheel. I torqued the wheel nuts to 100lbs.
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Old 11-06-2006, 11:54 PM   #17
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Devoman ,you know Ive been thinking the ( one breaks and they all go ) thing
for some time .in my workings with trailers the constant thing I have noticed
that the center hub (on the drum or rotor ) does not center the wheel .
Matter of fact the studs center the wheel and support the wheel .On all
the older trailers ,even early aluminum wheel 70s trailers ,the hub snout is
precisely fitted thru the center of the wheel .All car and truck wheels are
hub centric this way ,the hub supports the wheel ,NOT the studs .All stock
steel wheels are this way and auto /truck aluminum wheels are also this way
even big trucks .most all aftermarket wheels either steel or aluminum are not
and rely soley on the wheel studs for support ,not good .The white spoke
wheels on alot of trailers are stud reliant ,no hub support .The wheel studs
hold the wheel on tightly ,the hub centric wheel will be better .Im thinking that these trailers must not have hub centric wheels ,but stud reliant meaning no hub support .Trailers predominently do not use any hub centric
wheels unless you have the steel 2600# style steel wheels or equivelent.
They did for many many years before though. I believe this problem needs
some way to be resolved .Yes ,over torqueing does break studs ,but theres
more going on here with this problem .

Scott
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:01 AM   #18
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Hello UWE ,

I agree that the inserts in the wheel are very important ,and not all wheels are coming off ,a high quality wheel is important as well. The studs may be weak or cheap or both ,and the drums are also not that great ,china made
no doubt ,mass produced ,yes but still Id like a resolve to all this ,the folks with the Red Argosy were a victim to wheel stud failure and enough is enough ,somthings got to be resolved ,their wheel was not hub centric either.

Scott
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:39 AM   #19
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Hi, this is some sort of a repeat, but I torque my Navigator at 150#s per Ford and my Safari at 120#s per Airstream owner's manual. It was shown that some Airstreams are torqued at 85#s, but not mine. The reason for the retorqueing is that they can come loose and Manufacturers don't want the liability. As for the extension thing; Torqueing by hand, the extension torque lose is so little, if any at all, becomes meaningless. But the more stuff you add to your neumatic air tools, you will lose some torque. [extensions, multiple extensions, wobble sockets, and other combinations] I personally check torque on trailer and tow vehicle before every trip.

Bob
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Old 11-07-2006, 08:47 AM   #20
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I have been torquing the lugs to 115 foot pounds because my Airstream Manual says to tighten to 110 to 120 foot pounds, so I spliit the difference and use 115. Are you guys saying that 115 is too tight? I would like to know what you recommend. My '05 25' Safari has the standard alloy wheels.
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Old 11-07-2006, 10:49 AM   #21
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Warranty

I would run with what you are doing.I dont see anything wrong with doing so as long it is not over torqued.Once you pass that the bolts start to stretch and then weaken.Other than that I think I am going with what the manual say from now on.I am thinking 115 is a great number.It just depends also as to what year and what size your trailer might be as well as to torque specs.I would think that over the years each Airstream was made differently so the specs would be to depending on what type of rim and drum is used.
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Old 11-07-2006, 10:56 AM   #22
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For a horror story, see Rich's (Airstream Life guy) weblog.

Overtight lug nuts are usually from shops that use impact wrenches improperly. As moosetags noted, the manual has the specs. Steel wheels seem to require about 90 and aluminum about 110. Your tire shop should know this and should set proper torque when replacing tires if it is a good shop. Monitoring anyone messing with your wheels is a good thing to do to make sure they take appropriate precautions.

There was a link in a discussion here to the lug torque specs on Airstream RV wheels. Scott, on the Ford Trucks discussion forum posted what looks like some good advice for Torque Wrench Users.

On the road I think it is overkill to use a torque wrench. What you are worried about is the lugs coming loose. Check soon after getting wheel work done and the less frequently down to daily by using a standard lug wrench and giving a tightening tug.

The tolerance is quite wide. A firm tug will get you 70 lb-ft or so. To overtighten enough to cause damage usually means in excess of 200 lb-ft or so.

The reason for a torque spec is to be able to assure the bolt stays tight but not damage the material. What makes them come loose includes the deformation of material (aluminum is softer than steel), vibration, and loads.

Trailers have had recommendations to check lug nuts for as long as I remember. I don't know why but some trailers even had right hand threaded bolts for one side and left hand for the other.

Note that the trailer ball used by Airstream trailers needs 450 lb-ft. That is what you can do with large bolts and thick steel.
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Old 11-07-2006, 11:22 AM   #23
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different on vintage

On our 1976 Overlander we do not have "studs", rather have lug bolts. Each bolt has a torque amount of 90-95 pounds. I set our wrench on 93 just to be on the safe side. The torque wrench really came in handy when I had a flat and changed to a steel spare. I checked at 5, 20 ,50 and 100. You could tell that some of the nuts needed a re-torque. Be sure to set your torque wrench back to zero when you are done...
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodedareas
When I picked up my new Safari this week the dealer advised me to check the torgue of our lug nuts every so often. He said they shoul be 110'. I puchase a torque wrench but found out that due to the interior wheel location I would require an extension for the wrench which means that the wrench has to be adjusted for the distance of the extension. How often do I need to do this and is there any easier method????
Thanks for all of the advice. As a new owner I am still in the learning phase and since I am leaving on an extended trip this is one safety issue that concerns me. I have made an arrangement to stop by Camper World before I leave and instruct them on how I desire that my lug nuts be checked for proper torque.After that I will do it on my own. Last night I read my owners manual and it suggested 110#. Thanks to everyone for the help.
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Old 11-07-2006, 12:27 PM   #25
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My advice on the 115# was related to the 110 # torque recommendation
and not to exceed that .It does seem that airstream or the axle maker has
up that figure to 120# ,but yet we are seeing different specs ,so again I
think that they (manafactures) are trying to figure themselves how to keep the wheels from coming loose by having conflicting torque specs as one is
not the answer ,too tight ,too loose whichever they think it may be. Id be
betting that vajeeps overlander has the hubcentered wheels with the bolts
and never has had a lick of trouble .Richs Blog does represent the major
issue facing these trailers and the aluminum wheels ,the torque of the studs
is certainly important ,but its obviouse to me there is more too it ,namely
the hub centering and support to the wheel itself. What can be done is the question at this point .

Scott
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Old 11-07-2006, 03:53 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
Overtight lug nuts are usually from shops that use impact wrenches improperly. As moosetags noted, the manual has the specs. Steel wheels seem to require about 90 and aluminum about 110. Your tire shop should know this and should set proper torque when replacing tires if it is a good shop. Monitoring anyone messing with your wheels is a good thing to do to make sure they take appropriate precautions.
Steel wheels are made thinner because the metal has a higher strength yet is still flexible without failing. If you over tighten the lugs, the steel wheel will crimp or divot under the lugs before the steel studs stretch. The aluminum wheels are more brittle and must be thicker to be of the same strength; therefore, they aren't able to flex under the compression of the lug being over torqued as a result of the mass of the wheel material. This causes the steel stud to stretch before the aluminum compresses. This is what causes the studs to break.

If you look at the different models of Airstreams over the years you will notice that each seems to have a different torque recommendation for each model year and often for different models during the same year. Each style of wheel has a different rating as well. You cannot expect your local tire shop to know all of these different ratings even if they specialize in RV's. Even Airstream shops have to keep reference materials handy to make sure they get it right, or at least they should be refering to them when they replace the wheels.

The best advise you have given is to monitor the technicians that are re-installing your wheels. If they use air wrenches to install the lugs, make sure they only spin the lugs on and manually torque them to the settings recommended by Airstream. Don't let them torque them with their air wrenches!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
On the road I think it is overkill to use a torque wrench. What you are worried about is the lugs coming loose. Check soon after getting wheel work done and the less frequently down to daily by using a standard lug wrench and giving a tightening tug.

The tolerance is quite wide. A firm tug will get you 70 lb-ft or so. To overtighten enough to cause damage usually means in excess of 200 lb-ft or so.
This is foolish advise. The tollerance is not wide. This is why your owner's manual says 110-120ft-lb. and not 70-140 ft-lb. Obviously if the recommendation is for 110# as the minimum, a 70 ft-lb or so torque won't do. Ask Rich if he thinks his lugs were tightened to 200 ft-lbs. Ask him if he will ever let his lugs be tightened to more than the recommended torque max listed in his owner's manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper

The reason for a torque spec is to be able to assure the bolt stays tight but not damage the material. What makes them come loose includes the deformation of material (aluminum is softer than steel), vibration, and loads.
You are correct, there are a lot of reasons they loosen, but it still remains that they do get loose. The recommendation that Airstream publishes in their owner's manual may seem way too frequent, but I bet it is to make sure no one gets hurt or no damage is caused as a result. If you follow their advise you won't. If you torque them half as often, you will probably not have any problems either as can be born out by countless people on this forum that haven't followed AS's schedule to no perril, but no one has been hurt as a result of following it either.
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Old 11-07-2006, 09:24 PM   #27
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ok tork nuts....

the original poster asked a specific question...it was answered i think.

later someone asked if 115 was correct for their unit...

zoom zoom posted this MOST USEFUL page for the a/s service manual....

here are the torque specs for all modern wheels....

http://www.airforums.com/forum...05-post81.html

its a good page and the most useful post in the other long thread on this topic.......

find your wheels and take notes....

cheers
2air'
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Old 11-07-2006, 10:49 PM   #28
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Cool

Now that is great.This should be posted as a sticky for anyone who is looking for something like this.
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