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Old 11-02-2014, 04:29 PM   #729
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I am really curious to see if the wheel manufacturer and Centramatic give me the same answer.

Brian
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Old 11-03-2014, 05:56 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by moosetags View Post
I am really curious to see if the wheel manufacturer and Centramatic give me the same answer.

Brian
Prediction: Both the wheel manufacturers and the Centramatic folks give the same answer: No difference with or without.

I'll even go so far as to say that some will not answer the question at all - in other words, some will say 1) THEY (meaning the wheel manufacturer) don't specify lug nut torque - the vehicle manufacturer does, or 2) they don't have experience so they decline to answer.
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Old 11-03-2014, 10:43 AM   #731
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Another Opinion (my idea of what is probably fact)

The lowest torque that can be used is that value that will ensure the lug nuts won't loosen under your most extreme driving conditions.

The highest torque that can be used is that value that will ensure that no component will fail due to the pressure of the lug nut pulling up on the lug stud and compressing all in between the nut and the brake drum or disk.

So the real question is: How far apart are those numbers? I would guess that there is a fairly large range between those two numbers in a system with properly designed components.

What number are you being given when quoted a value by a manufacturer? Is it the minimum, the maximum, or some absolute ideal value for all possible scenarios?

The point I'm trying to make (with a lot more words) is the same one Andy made above (with the mexico story). I think once again, as we so often do here, we are trying to use rocket science to find an absolute value for something, when in fact a wide range of values are perfect acceptable. That would help explain why there are varying answers, from different sources.

So pick a reasonable number and check it often.


Ken
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Old 11-03-2014, 10:47 AM   #732
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I am having some serious difficulty getting my mind around the torque values being discussed here. My copy of "The Engineer's Handbook" show the following "dry" values:'
1/2" 20 bolt grade 5 - 78 foot pounds
grade 6 (alloy) - 110 foot pounds
grade 8 - 119 foot pounds

If the bolt has ANY lube on it, the torque value must be decreased....

Are the trailer wheel lugs really Grade 8 or better?

Who knows for sure?
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Old 11-03-2014, 10:54 AM   #733
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This morning, I called both Centramatic and Performance Plus Tire. As predicted by the earlier post, Centamatic told me that the installatioon of their balancers do not impact the torque value of the lug nuts whatsoever.

Performance Plus Tire told me that they recommend a lug nut torque value of 75 to 85 ft-lbs on a 1/2"-20 lug nut. I told them that these wheels were being installed on an Airstream Travel Trailer. He said that it could be higher in this application, but said that their chart is based on the size of the lug bolt and nut.

That being the case, I guess I'm back at the Airstream Manual torque figure of 110 ft-lbs.

Brian
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Old 11-03-2014, 10:58 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by theOrca View Post
I am having some serious difficulty getting my mind around the torque values being discussed here. My copy of "The Engineer's Handbook" show the following "dry" values:'
1/2" 20 bolt grade 5 - 78 foot pounds
grade 6 (alloy) - 110 foot pounds
grade 8 - 119 foot pounds

If the bolt has ANY lube on it, the torque value must be decreased....

Are the trailer wheel lugs really Grade 8 or better?

Who knows for sure?
Another question: Are those values the maximum allowed before the bolt or nut will fail? Since the application will determine what is the minimum required to meet the specifications of the system, that seem most likely. If that is the case then the components between the nut and bolt must also be examined for how much pressure they can withstand and the ratio of torque to pressure exerted must also be known.

That brings me to my point. Are we over analyzing this?

I certainly think so.

Ken
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:09 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by moosetags View Post
This morning, I called both Centramatic and Performance Plus Tire. As predicted by the earlier post, Centamatic told me that the installatioon of their balancers do not impact the torque value of the lug nuts whatsoever.

Performance Plus Tire told me that they recommend a lug nut torque value of 75 to 85 ft-lbs on a 1/2"-20 lug nut. I told them that these wheels were being installed on an Airstream Travel Trailer. He said that it could be higher in this application, but said that their chart is based on the size of the lug bolt and nut.

That being the case, I guess I'm back at the Airstream Manual torque figure of 110 ft-lbs.

Brian
Gosh, now I'm worried that my 115 '#s is too much

Ken

What do you think of my newly invented symbol for foot pounds. If it is truly original, I think I'll copyright it.
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:13 AM   #736
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As first stated by theOrca, the correct answer is based on the grade of the bolt/stud that is being stretched to some point below it's maximum elastic torque limit.
The bolt needs to stretch slightly in order to stay tight. By stretching the bolt you are effectively loading he joint between the wheel and hub, so you don't need to use lockwashers or threadlockers.
But if you overdo it, beyond the elastic limit and into the plastic range, you will permanently deform the bolt/stud and it may snap off.
So the three things that matters in this discussion is the metallury of the stud, the hardness of the wheel (steel or aluminum), and the condition (dry) of the threads. Everything else is immaterial.
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:28 AM   #737
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I am sticking with 110 since that was what Airstream recommended when I first researched putting 16's on my rig.
Larry
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:37 AM   #738
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As first stated by theOrca, the correct answer is based on the grade of the bolt/stud that is being stretched to some point below it's maximum elastic torque limit.
The bolt needs to stretch slightly in order to stay tight. By stretching the bolt you are effectively loading he joint between the wheel and hub, so you don't need to use lockwashers or threadlockers.
But if you overdo it, beyond the elastic limit and into the plastic range, you will permanently deform the bolt/stud and it may snap off.
So the three things that matters in this discussion is the metallury of the stud, the hardness of the wheel (steel or aluminum), and the condition (dry) of the threads. Everything else is immaterial.
I. with utmost respect, take exception to your last statement. What is really material to the user (us) is not all those factors. It is good to understand those things, but we are not going to calculate the torque. What would be of the most value (material) to the user would be two numbers, a minimum and maximum torque value that will do a given job. Since those of us who add after market wheels, tires, and auxiliary devices from varying manufacturers cannot expect to be provided an answer to the torque question from any individual manufacturer, the best solution is an educated guess which I think is what we are working toward. From the range of numbers various people have posted, I would say the range of acceptable values is fairly broad.

Ken
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:46 AM   #739
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I think the wheels, tires, centrimatics are irrelevant.
However, unless you know (or have some way to determine) the modulus of elasticity of the wheel studs, you are pretty much left guessing at a value between 78 ft-lbs and 119 ft-lbs, as stated in post 732.
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:49 AM   #740
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The Airstream specification for aluminum wheels calls for 110 ft lbs torque. You can't go far wrong with that number; the OEM wheel studs are, we must assume, factored in.
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Old 11-03-2014, 12:04 PM   #741
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I am sticking with 110 since that was what Airstream recommended when I first researched putting 16's on my rig.
Larry
I believe that is the most sensible solution. Since it is a fairly low number among those posted here, and considering the fact the Airstream, who provides the drums and studs that the lug nuts are mounted on, recommends it, I think it is a safe solution. I find it unlikely that a reputable dealer would sell a wheel that would crack with that low a torque. Centramatics are just a flat thin plate under the wheel and logically should have no effect.

Ken
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Old 11-03-2014, 01:11 PM   #742
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Unless someone has a convincing argument to the contrary, I plan on going with the 110 ft-lbs lug nut torque value. Since I will be using the OEM lug bolt and lug nut, this seems to be the best course.

Brian
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