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07-12-2013, 08:00 AM
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#521
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Rivet Master
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction
, Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,214
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While the safety factor might not be 35%, the Michelin 16" tires are rated at a heavier load capacity (2,680 pounds) than the standard GYM ST 15"tires (2,540 pounds). Therefore, there is a greater safety margin with the Michelins than the GYM tires in terms of load capacity.
Michelin tires have not been exhibiting failures like the GYM ST tires have on this forum and other trailer related forums. I had a spare GYM ST tire that had never been on the ground (inflated to recommended pressure) delaminate on my motorcycle trailer. The tread just came off in my hand.
I am considering getting a set of eight wheel weight scales that would allow me to verify both left and right as well as fore and aft loads on the the tires when the trailer and truck are loaded for the road. While these scales are not cheap, neither is the damage caused by a bad tire failure due to overloading. This system would also allow for more precise placement of "stuff" in both vehicles to keep left and right balance on the axles of both vehicles for better handling.
I could also compensate for the fact there is more of me than there is of my wife.
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC
TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell
2014 31' Classic w/ twin beds, 50 amp service, 1000 watt solar system, Centramatics, Tuson TPMS, 12" disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
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07-12-2013, 10:22 AM
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#522
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3 Rivet Member
2014 30' International
DFW Airport
, Texas
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bryant
John,
I always like to take an acid brush and brush some graphite-based anti-seize compound on lug nuts. As a matter of fact, I use the stuff on any engine or drive train assembly unless it is something that should have thread locking compound or a Teflon sealant (like engine head). Anything related to a marine engine (outboard or inboard) should have the anti-seize too.
You don't have to put it on the lug nuts every time, but every third time, wouldn't hurt. This will eliminate galling, rusting, seizing, etc. It will also ensure a more correct torque value.
Steve
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This has been the subject of many threads on the Racing sites over the years. Torque specs are given "dry" where the inherent tension between the threads are the means by which the wheel is held against the hub. the moment you release that tension with a lubricant you change the value of the torque. In any load stressed environment that is deemed by the knowledgeable to render a significant decrease in safety. Generally the conclusion is that regular cleaning of the threads inside and out is sufficient to prevent this damage. Which as you can appreciate on a race car we are significantly more prone to such damage. Over 20 years of track experience I have only had one damaged stud on a race car (my fault) and one on the trailer in the circumstances described. I solved the car issue with an easily replaced stud but on the trailer I had to use a tap to repair it.
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07-12-2013, 10:28 AM
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#523
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3 Rivet Member
2014 30' International
DFW Airport
, Texas
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switz
I am considering getting a set of eight wheel weight scales that would allow me to verify both left and right as well as fore and aft loads on the the tires when the trailer and truck are loaded for the road. While these scales are not cheap, neither is the damage caused by a bad tire failure due to overloading. This system would also allow for more precise placement of "stuff" in both vehicles to keep left and right balance on the axles of both vehicles for better handling.
I could also compensate for the fact there is more of me than there is of my wife.
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Actually you do not need 8 scales as this is probably a $2K investment at least. 4 will do and are much easier to manage. The amount of leverage that the trailer will impose on the hitch because its 2 inches higher when sitting on the scales will be immaterial in the exercise. And vice versa when the truck is on the scales. But this is the very best way to ensure the L/R and F/B loading is within the range for which you are looking to achieve. I was staggered to find the real load on my rear wheels when I used the CAT scales at a Pilot Truck stop; and how little safety margin there was to handle road and temperature conditions. I still do not know my L/R loading on the truck but suspect it too is significantly driver side loaded.
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07-12-2013, 04:19 PM
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#524
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,694
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The torque on OEM wheels at the beginning of the 2008 model year was 120 lbs. During the year they changed wheel suppliers and these were to be torqued at 110 lbs. I would imagine the torque recommendation for several years before that was 120.
I spray WD-40 on the lugs and nuts to clean them; they also go on easier.
Gene
__________________
Gene
The Airstream is sold; a 2016 Nash 24M replaced it.
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07-12-2013, 04:29 PM
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#525
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Rivet Master
2012 28' International
Olympia
, Washington
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene
The torque on OEM wheels at the beginning of the 2008 model year was 120 lbs. During the year they changed wheel suppliers and these were to be torqued at 110 lbs. I would imagine the torque recommendation for several years before that was 120.
I spray WD-40 on the lugs and nuts to clean them; they also go on easier.
Gene
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Lubing the lugs and nuts before torquing is a BAD idea. Torque values are based on dry assembly. Lubrication allows you to seriously overtorque them.
__________________
Dave
2014 Ram 2500 CTD
Pro Pride
Centramatics
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07-12-2013, 05:55 PM
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#526
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Moderator
2004 30' Classic Slideout
Fenton
, Missouri
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 10,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pahaska
By the way, in reference to my last post above. I have always torqued my wheel lugs on this trailer to 85 foot pounds as specified by ALCOA for my old wheels. I have an 85 foot pound torque stick. I also have a 100 foot pound maximum torque wrench which has been set to 85 fp each time I mount a wheel. I check torque before every trip of any distance. The mechanic who packed my bearings is well aware of the torque spec and I was standing there when he did the work.
That leaves me puzzled as to why those two lugs galled when the remaining 4 were just fine.
There is no published spec for my new Sendel wheels. I torqued them to 90 fp.
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John, Tredit who sold me my Sendell's told me 120 lbs. That seemed high to me so I compromised to 100.
Jack
__________________
Jack Canavera
STL Mo.
AIR #56 S/OS#15
'04 Classic 30' S.O.,'03 GMC Savana 2500
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07-12-2013, 06:03 PM
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#527
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Contributing Member
2018 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Austin (Hays County)
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,164
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My ALCOA wheels did just fine for years torqued to 85 as specified in my trailer manual. I think 90 is plenty for me for my present wheels. I have never had a lug nut appreciably change tension at 85. The other three hubs have always been at 85 and are fine.
Usually, 120 fp is for steel wheels that have some spring. For solid cast wheels, I prefer to stay under 100.
__________________
John W. Irwin
2018 Interstate GT, "Sabre-Dog V"
WBCCI #9632
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07-13-2013, 08:14 AM
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#528
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Rivet Master
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction
, Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,214
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When all else fails, give Jackson Center a call and ask what torque value they use on the Eddie Bauer models with the SenDel wheels (or when they install the 16" Michelins and SenDel wheels as a retrofit for a customer having them installed by Jackson Center. I plan to do so before installing the SenDel wheels on the new trailer.
BTW, both the 16" T03-66655BM and 16" T03-66655T SenDel wheels (used by Airstream) are rated for 3,580 pounds at 80psi while the identical appearance and bolt circle 15" T03-56655BM and 15" T03-56655T SenDel wheels are rated for 2,830 pounds @ 80psi. This SenDel link shows these wheels mounted on several Airstream trailers:
T03SM | Sendel Wheels
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC
TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell
2014 31' Classic w/ twin beds, 50 amp service, 1000 watt solar system, Centramatics, Tuson TPMS, 12" disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
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07-13-2013, 07:41 PM
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#529
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Contributing Member
2018 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Austin (Hays County)
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,164
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First tow
I towed the trailer to the wash rack, to inspection, and home, a total of about 25 miles. I had the tires at 75# and the outside temperature was 105 degrees. First impression was that the trailer rolled easier than on the Carlisle Es and was very stable.
I checked the disc temperature with my infrared and all discs were very close to 200 degrees when I arrived, including the set of brake pads that I had replaced. Each tire was at 81 psi, a very consistent pressure rise and each tire was at about 120 degrees.
__________________
John W. Irwin
2018 Interstate GT, "Sabre-Dog V"
WBCCI #9632
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07-18-2013, 02:49 PM
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#530
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4 Rivet Member
2018 30' International
2014 30' Flying Cloud
Los alamos
, New Mexico
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 359
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As of this morning, I purchased the Michelin 225/75/R16E and Sendel T03, cost for five tires, rims, installed with all their lifetime warranty stuff at Discount tire was $2105. Breakdown on cost before warranty ( optional ) tires $225, Sendel Rims with caps and lugs $135. I am sure there are better prices but I needed the conversion to this size for use on a 30ft Classic ltd I am picking up 950 miles end of month. Through this forum, and an active member, Larry, plus calling the factory for back up advise, this should work, also the torque spec is 100lbs.
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07-18-2013, 05:45 PM
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#531
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Rivet Master
2005 25' Safari
Salem
, Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pahaska
Usually, 120 fp is for steel wheels that have some spring. For solid cast wheels, I prefer to stay under 100.
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Hi, the wheel torque specs on my Safari are from 110 to 120 ft lbs. I torque them at the max of 120 ft lbs. For my steel wheel spare, it is supposed to be torqued at 90 ft lbs; I haven't done this yet because I have never used my spare.
[my Lincoln aluminum wheels are torqued at 150 ft lbs]
__________________
Bob 2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent" Small Silver Castle
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
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07-18-2013, 07:42 PM
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#532
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Limited
Wichita
, Kansas
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlamgat
This has been the subject of many threads on the Racing sites over the years. Torque specs are given "dry" where the inherent tension between the threads are the means by which the wheel is held against the hub. the moment you release that tension with a lubricant you change the value of the torque. In any load stressed environment that is deemed by the knowledgeable to render a significant decrease in safety. Generally the conclusion is that regular cleaning of the threads inside and out is sufficient to prevent this damage. Which as you can appreciate on a race car we are significantly more prone to such damage. Over 20 years of track experience I have only had one damaged stud on a race car (my fault) and one on the trailer in the circumstances described. I solved the car issue with an easily replaced stud but on the trailer I had to use a tap to repair it.
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Vlamgat,
I'm never too old to learn something new. I'll look into this some more.
Steve
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07-19-2013, 12:45 PM
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#533
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Rivet Master
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction
, Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,214
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The SenDel recommendation for torque on their wheels is 100 foot pounds.
I just checked the Airstream Parts manual for the 2013 Internationals which includes the Eddie Bauer models. Both the standard 15" Airstream wheel and the 16" SenDel wheel use the same lug nuts (part number 400923) and stainless steel center cap (part number 400844-01). See page I-73 in the manual.
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC
TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell
2014 31' Classic w/ twin beds, 50 amp service, 1000 watt solar system, Centramatics, Tuson TPMS, 12" disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
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07-19-2013, 11:00 PM
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#534
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Contributing Member
2018 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Austin (Hays County)
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switz
The SenDel recommendation for torque on their wheels is 100 foot pounds.
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Makes sense to me. I started on this trip at 90 fp and needed to tighten up again after the usual check at about 25 and 50 miles. I tried 95 with the same results. I went to 100 fp and they are still tight after 600 miles. 100 will be my setting from now on.
__________________
John W. Irwin
2018 Interstate GT, "Sabre-Dog V"
WBCCI #9632
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07-20-2013, 05:52 AM
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#535
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CapriRacer
I'm in the
, US
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 989
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Just an FYI on lug nut torque.
First, the torque required is a "moving" torque - that is the sliding friction component, so the torque wrench has to be turning the nut when being tighten to get the proper value.
Second, if you check already tightened lugnuts, be aware that slightly undertorqued nuts can still give good values.
Third, lubricating the studs and the lugnuts makes them slide easier and increases the stretch (and the stress) on the stud for a given torque. You should use less torque if you lube them - and the amount less varies on what lube you use.
Fourth, if you consistently get lugnuts that need tightening, use a higher initial torque. I've added torque in 10 foot-pound increments until they no longer loosened up.
And lastly, I recommend that before EVERY major tow, the inflation pressure and the torque on the lugnuts be checked - tow vehicle and trailer (including spares!) I'd also make it a habit of running your hand around the circumference of every tire, checking for bulges in the tread. (Wear gloves!!) If you find a bulge, replace the tire immediately.
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07-20-2013, 08:15 AM
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#536
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Contributing Member
2018 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Austin (Hays County)
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,164
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Tire pressure
I check my tire pressure before starting every tow. I have PressurePro sensors and I have found them right on with my expensive brass gauge. The sensors have saved me damage several times, either from tire failure or foreign object damage.
I also have a pump that automatically shuts off within 1/2 psi of a selected pressure which is handy since I can start the pump and go do other things while it runs.
I check the PressurePro underway at red lights or on straight stretches of road for roughly equal pressure increase. Shady side usually a pound less pressure, especially in hot weather, because of sun heating.
My new Michelin tires have the least pressure rise when running of any of the tires I have had on the trailer over the last 8 years.
__________________
John W. Irwin
2018 Interstate GT, "Sabre-Dog V"
WBCCI #9632
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07-20-2013, 10:40 PM
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#537
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Contributing Member
2018 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Austin (Hays County)
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,164
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I had one E-range Carlisle on an alloy wheel that has never been on the ground. I'm using that for a spare. If I need it, I'll just keep my speed down. That is the advantage of independent suspension, each axle adapts to the tire diameter.
__________________
John W. Irwin
2018 Interstate GT, "Sabre-Dog V"
WBCCI #9632
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07-21-2013, 10:38 AM
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#538
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Master of Universe
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,694
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The recommendation that you check lugnut torque at 25 and 50 miles is one of those recommendation that I doubt many people follow. How many really stop somewhere along the road after leaving home on a trip and check torque?
Recommendations that are realistic for the way people actually do things would be helpful.
I check torque when 2 things happen:
1. It is convenient, and
2. I remember.
The results are always the same—torque is correct and no loosening has occurred. I previously posted I use WD-40 to clean the threads and lubricate a bit, but I don't always remember to do that. Makes no difference, they never need tightening. Maybe it has to do with the altitude.
Gene
__________________
Gene
The Airstream is sold; a 2016 Nash 24M replaced it.
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07-21-2013, 01:23 PM
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#539
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Moderator
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Alamo Heights
, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene
The recommendation that you check lugnut torque at 25 and 50 miles is one of those recommendation that I doubt many people follow. How many really stop somewhere along the road after leaving home on a trip and check torque?
Recommendations that are realistic for the way people actually do things would be helpful.
I check torque when 2 things happen:
1. It is convenient, and
2. I remember.
The results are always the same—torque is correct and no loosening has occurred. I previously posted I use WD-40 to clean the threads and lubricate a bit, but I don't always remember to do that. Makes no difference, they never need tightening. Maybe it has to do with the altitude.
Gene
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It may also have to do with the fact that WD40 is a relative poor lubricant... while most people use it for that, it's more water displacement/penetrant and tends to clean off lubricant that may already be there...
__________________
— David
Zero Gravitas — 2017 Flying Cloud 26U | WBCCI# 15566
He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. — Sir Winston Churchill
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07-21-2013, 08:50 PM
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#540
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Limited
Wichita
, Kansas
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlamgat
This has been the subject of many threads on the Racing sites over the years. Torque specs are given "dry" where the inherent tension between the threads are the means by which the wheel is held against the hub. the moment you release that tension with a lubricant you change the value of the torque. In any load stressed environment that is deemed by the knowledgeable to render a significant decrease in safety. Generally the conclusion is that regular cleaning of the threads inside and out is sufficient to prevent this damage. Which as you can appreciate on a race car we are significantly more prone to such damage. Over 20 years of track experience I have only had one damaged stud on a race car (my fault) and one on the trailer in the circumstances described. I solved the car issue with an easily replaced stud but on the trailer I had to use a tap to repair it.
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I've done some research on using anti-seize compound on the lug nuts and I was wrong in my recommendation. Vlamgat, you are completely right and I appreciate your setting me straight. I still like anti-seize for the other things that I suggested, but not for lug nuts or bolts.
Thanks,
Steve
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