16" wheels/LT tires

[Action]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

ST tires are not subject to the same federal regulations passenger tires are. They are not speed rated although there is a recommendation not to go over 65 if the tire pressure is 65.
Gene

Many ST rated tires state on the side wall something to the effect they are not acceptable on a vehicle carying humans. Again because the rating system for ST tires is different than P rated tires.



>>>>>>>Action

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Action

Many ST rated tires state on the side wall something to the effect they are not acceptable on a vehicle carying humans.

>>>>>>>Action

Action, I didn't know that.

So they are acceptable for a vehicle of 10,000 lbs. attached to another vehicle with humans in it. Amazing.

Gene

[Action]

Yes some are only rated for trailer operation. Look at the side wall.

>>>>>>Action

[dkottum]

It doesn't say not acceptable for vehicles carrying humans. It says "For trailer service only". That means they are designed for trailer use only, not for the steering and traction requirements of a car or truck. Doesn't imply they are too poor quality for car or truck.

I've had good luck with GYMs. My single axle 20' Airstream had 2500# per tire on the same GYM that my tandem 25' has 1825# per tire on, and had no problems. By comparison these have it pretty easy.

Not surprised of many GYM failures reported here on Airstreams because that is virtually the only tire mounted on Airstreams for years. I would be concerned about harsh ride or handling characteristics of some other tires. The Michelin 16" is interesting but expensive if we don't need it.

doug k

[slowmover]

Doesn't imply they are too poor quality for car or truck.


Yes, they are inferior by design (literally, dangerous) to ever be used for passenger carrying. It really is that simple. An ST is good enough for the open trailer you use to cart your riding lawnmower. And that's about it.

For those who want to risk damage to a $50k trailer, have at it.

.

[dkottum]

Rednax you have a lot of good advice but if I used it all I'd need to own a gold mine. I am concerned about the danger of ST tires and if that poor would consider breaking the bank again.

The GYM's have worked well for me and others. Apparently lucky?

Why are ST tires so dangerous?

doug k

[boondockdad]

Originally Posted by REDNAX

Doesn't imply they are too poor quality for car or truck.


Yes, they are inferior by design (literally, dangerous) to ever be used for passenger carrying. It really is that simple. An ST is good enough for the open trailer you use to cart your riding lawnmower. And that's about it.

For those who want to risk damage to a $50k trailer, have at it.

.

Wholly agree.

[slowmover]

Read the "Revised" tire thread that involves two professional tire engineers and come to your own conclusions. Mine are above. ST is a recent tire "type", and "appears" to be a way to utilize obsolete tire manufacturing equipment / processes for a few more years.

Never discount profit. It shades everything to do with vehicles (determine the answer beforehand to limit the questions: explains SAE J2807 Towing Standards).

Rednax you have a lot of good advice but if I used it all I'd need to own a gold mine

Tires, brakes and hitches aren't to be compromised . . but I sure get your meaning. I don't have the gold mine either. I file it under "bought for permanence" or "Do It Right, And Do It Once".

Irks me mightily when safety is compromised for profit (as with yellowed, cloudy headlight housings that cost $325/ea . . and USDOT doesn't do squat about it).

.

[redwoodguy]

I just spent another hour with the Google. I typed in "Goodyear Marathon Blowout" and then I typed in "ST Tires." I poured over dozens and dozens of pages of reports of disasters. I really don't know how anyone could come to any conclusion other than "unsafe." Really, I just don't know what other evidence people would need.

But of course, this is a statistical issue. Just because 10 guys have blowouts doesn't mean there won't be a guy who drives 50,000 miles on them with no problem. You can always be lucky.

I have a feeling the ST tire invention is the product of cost reduction. RV manufacturers probably begged the tire makers to give them a lower cost tire than they were using. After all, "people aren't riding in these trailers, you know!" Tiremen were only too happy to oblige, and the ST tire was born.

The world is jammed full with cost reduced products which are designed for "minimally acceptable function." It appears that the GYM is one of those products.

The essential questions are, is there a better solution? and if so, can I afford not to use it?

[Action]

Unsafe is a pretty harsh judgement for a tire that has been on the market several decades and has under gone testing both independant and govenment.

I would agree the ST is a tire category that is performs less than a similar sized LT or even P tire. Or at least in my opinon. However to label it unsafe is too far. Used properly and replaced before the end of it's service life (like any tire) it will perform.

Will there be tire failures? yes just like any other tire
Will ST tire owner's not be dilligent in checking pressure? Yes just like any other tires
Will ST tire owner's encounter road hazards? Yes just like any other tire.

I believe knowing the limitations of a thing is as just important as knowing it's performance rating. I believe the load factor is often over looked in tire application. Even in this thread there are owner's that have a tire capacity greater than 95% of the total load. I am OK with that as long as in usage that person understands the risk of such a small safety margin. No one whats to spend more on a thing if they don't have to. And even though these units do not have engines for the most part they are still complex machines that need care and maintence. Tires as a sub-category are not a install and forget them component. We have made car and light truck tires a install and forget them. This is why the government is considering or will consider a mandate to require tire pressure sensors on vehicles. Prudent use of a tire gauge and air hose would be far far easier and cheaper.

To call ST tire unsafe ....... well that's a bit dramatic.

>>>>>>>>>Action

[redwoodguy]

Originally Posted by Action

Unsafe is a pretty harsh judgement for a tire that has been on the market several decades and has under gone testing both independant and govenment.

I would agree the ST is a tire category that is performs less than a similar sized LT or even P tire. Or at least in my opinon. However to label it unsafe is too far. Used properly and replaced before the end of it's service life (like any tire) it will perform.

Will there be tire failures? yes just like any other tire
Will ST tire owner's not be dilligent in checking pressure? Yes just like any other tires
Will ST tire owner's encounter road hazards? Yes just like any other tire.

I believe knowing the limitations of a thing is as just important as knowing it's performance rating. I believe the load factor is often over looked in tire application. Even in this thread there are owner's that have a tire capacity greater than 95% of the total load. I am OK with that as long as in usage that person understands the risk of such a small safety margin. No one whats to spend more on a thing if they don't have to. And even though these units do not have engines for the most part they are still complex machines that need care and maintence. Tires as a sub-category are not a install and forget them component. We have made car and light truck tires a install and forget them. This is why the government is considering or will consider a mandate to require tire pressure sensors on vehicles. Prudent use of a tire gauge and air hose would be far far easier and cheaper.

To call ST tire unsafe ....... well that's a bit dramatic.

>>>>>>>>>Action

Tire reliability is a matter of statistics. Like most parts, data is collected over a large number of samples, and failure is analyzed statistically. When you use the phrase above, "Will there be tire failures? yes just like any other tire," you are ignoring the entire meaning of statistics. No sir, all tires are not alike, nor are all transmissions, or all brakes, or all ATSs or all air conditioners. Designs are different by their performance, and that is always measured with statistics.

To make an example, I will make up a statistic called "Mileage Before Blowout." If I collected a lot of data on how many average miles were on each tire before it blew out, I might come up with a chart like this:
Tire A = 1,250 miles
Tire B = 2,467 miles
Tire C = 5,987 miles
Would a reasonable person look at that chart and say all tires are the same because all tires fail? Well, I wouldn't.
Now, that is a made up example just to demonstrate the principle here. Unfortunately, hard data for trailer tire blowouts might not be available, so I drop back to a less strict analysis called "best evidence." With best evidence you do as much research as you can, and find as much evidence as possible. Then you make an informed judgment - just like juries do in a trial. They examine evidence and then judge.

Having looked at boating forums, fishing forums, RV forums and trailering forums in general, I see a mountain of evidence about GYM blowouts and a tiny hill of evidence about other brands blowing out. Since I must make a judgement here about my family's safety, I must now make it on the "best evidence" I can assemble.

Now finally, let me answer you about the word "unsafe." Safety is always relative. Nothing is perfectly safe or unsafe. A speed limit set by a highway department is a relative safety measure. 55MPH can still kill you, in other words. Since safety is relative, there is no strict bright line between safe and unsafe. For some people driving 55MPH is very safe, for some people it is utterly unsafe, depending on skill and other circumstances. What is clear then about safety is that it is a personal judgment. I know people who think skydiving is safe. I think it is unsafe for me and my family. Some people will drive on bald tires and think nothing of it. These forums are not dictates for people. They represent opinions of the posters. I understand that, I assume others do too.

For my family, under our priorities and circumstances, equipping a 25 foot trailer with tires that have massive evidence of premature failure is "unsafe." Most of the people I know and regard as friends think exactly the same way I do. And I am sure they would agree with me. What is dramatic in this case is the blindness of so many people to accept on pure faith mystical dogma in place of hard evidence.

I assume everyone here is adult enough to decide for themselves what level of safety and reliability they can accept. For example, I'll bet a very robust, athletic young man of 30 might accept a higher risk of tire blowout than a man of 75 years old with some disabilities. What do you think? Must everyone conform to one standard of risk? Do you happen to know my particular circumstances in a way that you can call my standard "dramatic?"

[redwoodguy]

I went out this morning and performed a careful exam of the four tires on our trailer. We have about 3500 miles on it this far. It is a 2012. I found significant bulging and deformation in 3 of the 4 tires, and small deformation in the 4th. This is simply unacceptable under any circumstances, from any manufacturer of any RV, full stop. There are no excuses, or rationalisations, or cultish fairy dust, which changes the facts on the ground. 6 month old tires with 3500 miles are deformed and ready to blow endangering my family.

I made a decision to go with the existing 15" wheels and I purchased four Michelin LTX-MS 235/75R15 XL tires to be mounted next week. I also purchased the Dill Trailer TPMS and will have that installed with the new tires.

There were other good choices like the 16 " XPS Rib, but in the end I was a bit concerned about the ride stiffness of the XPS, and decided to trade a little bit of ruggedness, for a little softer ride, and still have a tire that by all reports of users is performing near flawlessly. And, there is a big savings by not having to buy new wheels too. I have so much equipment to replace in my new trailer, I did not want to blow it all here on tires alone.

I want to thank those other guys who are fearlessly swimming upstream against the traditions and taking matters into their own hands to make the trailer represent the value they assumed they were getting at the start. They have been posting invaluable information on all manner of parts, systems, tires, wheels and really moving the ball forward. I got my first step under control, now it's on to make the power system state-of-the art.

[xrvr]

I can hardly wait. Jim

[newroswell]

Guys, they're named Goodyear, because they're Good for ONE Year. Then you upgrade.

[nilesrob]

Originally Posted by redwoodguy

I made a decision to go with the existing 15" wheels and I purchased four Michelin LTX-MS 235/75R15 XL tires to be mounted next week.

Just when I thought I was seeing a decent solution to replace tires utilizing the existing 15" rims, I go to the Michelin web site and cannot find any reference to the tire mentioned - at least not in a 15. Any help/link appreciated, thanks!

[10Smiles]

Is this them??

LTX MS Michelin Tires LTX M/S 2 P235/75R15 ORWL 108 T

[redwoodguy]

Originally Posted by 10Smiles

Is this them??

LTX MS Michelin Tires LTX M/S 2 P235/75R15 ORWL 108 T

Does not seem to have the right tail end designator. The ones I ordered have a specific "XL" load range. Check the spec to see the load range. I am not on a browser.

[redwoodguy]

Originally Posted by 10Smiles

Is this them??

LTX MS Michelin Tires LTX M/S 2 P235/75R15 ORWL 108 T

Here is the tire I selected. Note the XL load range of 2,183 lbs. and 50 PSI.
Michelin*LTX M/S2

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by redwoodguy

I went out this morning and performed a careful exam of the four tires on our trailer. We have about 3500 miles on it this far. It is a 2012. I found significant bulging and deformation in 3 of the 4 tires, and small deformation in the 4th. This is simply unacceptable under any circumstances, from any manufacturer of any RV, full stop. There are no excuses, or rationalisations, or cultish fairy dust, which changes the facts on the ground. 6 month old tires with 3500 miles are deformed and ready to blow endangering my family.

I think the deformation you see is overlapping of the plys during construction of the tire. I think this whistle was blown on this forum in the past and that was the answer. It caught my eye because all eight of the GYMs I bought new on my two new Airstreams had this appearance. None have failed.

doug k

[redwoodguy]

[QUOTE=dkottum;1170406]

Originally Posted by redwoodguy

I went out this morning and performed a careful exam of the four tires on our trailer. We have about 3500 miles on it this far. It is a 2012. I found significant bulging and deformation in 3 of the 4 tires, and small deformation in the 4th. This is simply unacceptable under any circumstances, from any manufacturer of any RV, full stop. There are no excuses, or rationalisations, or cultish fairy dust, which changes the facts on the ground. 6 month old tires with 3500 miles are deformed and ready to blow endangering my family.

I think the deformation you see is overlapping of the plys during construction of the tire. I think this whistle was blown on this forum in the past and that was the answer. It caught my eye because all eight of the GYMs I bought new on my two new Airstreams had this appearance. None have failed.

doug k

As I said before, there are sidewall bulges in my tires. Here's some information about sidewall bulges:
Tire Tech Information - Sidewall Indentations, Undulations and Protrusions
and then here - Tire Tech Information - Sidewall Separations/Bubbles

The paragraph of interest to me reads as follows:
"However, if protruding bulges, as shown in Fig. A (photo provided by a customer), rather than indentations appear on the sidewall of a recently installed tire, it reveals that there is an undesirable gap between some of the body ply cords inside the tire. The tire should be removed from service and replaced under the tire manufacturer's defects in materials and workmanship warranty." (Bolding and emphasis mine). No amount of fairy dust changes this reality.

These bulges on the sidewalls do not look promising to me. But, I am a person who doesn't gamble with auto safety. A guy tells me, "Hey, I never wear a seat belt and look - I am doing fine." That doesn't in anyway convince me not to wear a seat belt. Your individual experience with your tires convinces me of nothing in particular about tires, but I wish you continued good fortune with them.

I'm buying new tires because the preponderance of evidence I have examined, as reported by the tire owners themselves, reduces to a risk level that is wholly unacceptable to me, based on my personal safety standards and my circumstances. And, because I have the personal responsibility, means, and opportunity to mitigate this risk. Simple as that.

The kind and variety of risks others accept, is of course - as always - their personal choice.