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Old 05-29-2009, 12:30 PM   #15
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If you think trailer towing is bad, take a look at boating. There is no experience like spending a sunny summer afternoon at a boat launch ramp.
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:25 PM   #16
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The axles on that horse look shot.
I think that horse is a mule.
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:55 PM   #17
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I think it could be a donkey.
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Old 05-29-2009, 03:09 PM   #18
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Perhaps the size of the population of people willing to tow a large trailer without WD and sway control is genetically self-limiting ???
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Old 05-30-2009, 09:20 AM   #19
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re "and the liability is tremendous when a trailer with company logos plastered all over it runs Amok." - a good example of more FUD mongering with no facts behind it.

re: " If you were sitting on my side of the desk taking the phone calls you might have a different opinion of the problems out there." - why doesn't this show in the statistics about crashes put out by the state? Who should I believe? Someone who sits behind a phone and tells me about a selected subset or state statisticians who look at the entire set of data? Or maybe my own eyes, which tend to indicate the state research is more in line with reality?

re "I'm surprised how hard it is to find anyone offering a safe towing clinic." - its as near as your phone book or an I'net search engine. - But as we can see from many posts in this thread, even getting 'educated' isn't much help and is often misguided. Perhaps that is why many don't seek out such 'learning.'

And then there is the 'Political Correctness' factor - if you don't toe the line with the FUD mongering and have the audacity to bring in questions that don't fit, look what happens! It is not even possible to discuss topics like this and the factors involved.

When do you need a Weight Distributing hitch? There are no guidelines here, no discussion of relevant factors, no mention of trade-offs and risk assessment, no mention of how various levels of need are felt by the driver, no tests that can be done to assess level of need. None of this, just anecdote and absolutes and extreme cases.

The education should start here yet on many topics like this, it ends in a manner that propagates the ignorance, IMHO.
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Old 05-30-2009, 09:31 AM   #20
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When do you need a Weight Distributing hitch? There are no guidelines here, no discussion of relevant factors, no mention of trade-offs and risk assessment, no mention of how various levels of need are felt by the driver, no tests that can be done to assess level of need. None of this, just anecdote and absolutes and extreme cases.

The education should start here yet on many topics like this, it ends in a manner that propagates the ignorance, IMHO.
Please! A weight distribution hitch is needed when the weight of the the hitch on the tow vehicle begins to remove weight off the front wheels and thus affects steering and control. If you want to claim there are negative trade offs to using WD, then tell us what they are. Ive never come across a single one. Perhaps you have? Perceived level of need for WD does not necessarily translate into actual level of need. As your front wheels come off the ground, you progressively loose the ability to control the rig regardless of your perception. This isnt fear mongering, nor is it ancetdotal, it is physics.
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Old 05-30-2009, 10:05 AM   #21
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Fud?

What does "FUD" mean? Sorry if I'm not up on my internet acronymns...but I'm not familiar with that one.

Inland Andy has some excellent postings on the subject of weight distribution and anti sway. They are two separate and distinct issues.

A small trailer and a big tow vehicle and you can easily get away without either one. But as the size of the trailer goes up and the size of the tow vehicle goes down, it gets more and more important. Say you're pulling a 19' Bambi with an F-350 crew cab dualie...you don't need either one. Say you're pulling a 31' Excella with a Grand Cherokee...you need both.

It took me awhile to grasp the relationship of the spring bar size to the tow vehicle. But Inland Andy explained it very well. Anyone interested should look up his postings on the matter. They're very good.

I've also made it a point to look at the other rigs in the campgrounds. I see a lot of Reese products. I used to use a Dual Cam and it worked fine. I now use an Equal-I-Zer and really like it. I do believe the Hensely Arrow is the best, but it's very expensive. I honestly haven't seen that many "death traps" out there. I have seen a few dusies though

I'm still a big fan of the "Slimp Dolly." Get one of those and you don't need either WD or Anti Sway; don't need a 3/4 ton truck either. Good idea from the past...

Hey, my hero is from Calgary Alberta; Bret "The Hitman" Heart. Greatest wrestler of all time

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Old 05-30-2009, 10:47 AM   #22
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I think that horse is a mule.

He's certainly hung like one.

err...I mean hanging like one.

Sorry just couldn't help myself.
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Old 05-30-2009, 12:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanl View Post
re "and the liability is tremendous when a trailer with company logos plastered all over it runs Amok." - a good example of more FUD mongering with no facts behind it.

re: " If you were sitting on my side of the desk taking the phone calls you might have a different opinion of the problems out there." - why doesn't this show in the statistics about crashes put out by the state? Who should I believe? Someone who sits behind a phone and tells me about a selected subset or state statisticians who look at the entire set of data? Or maybe my own eyes, which tend to indicate the state research is more in line with reality?

re "I'm surprised how hard it is to find anyone offering a safe towing clinic." - its as near as your phone book or an I'net search engine. - But as we can see from many posts in this thread, even getting 'educated' isn't much help and is often misguided. Perhaps that is why many don't seek out such 'learning.'

And then there is the 'Political Correctness' factor - if you don't toe the line with the FUD mongering and have the audacity to bring in questions that don't fit, look what happens! It is not even possible to discuss topics like this and the factors involved.

When do you need a Weight Distributing hitch? There are no guidelines here, no discussion of relevant factors, no mention of trade-offs and risk assessment, no mention of how various levels of need are felt by the driver, no tests that can be done to assess level of need. None of this, just anecdote and absolutes and extreme cases.

The education should start here yet on many topics like this, it ends in a manner that propagates the ignorance, IMHO.
Posting useful information as you suggest, has always lead to arguments and unpleasant comments, from a number of owners.

The "nah", the "can't be", the " no way", the "that's old info", the "your wrong", the "I don't have a sway", the "I don't need a sway control", the "my truck can handle the problem", the "I don't need a load equalizing hitch", are just some of the past comments, that writing a good article, as you suggest, would create tons of negative comments, and would be a basic waste of time.

It would also probably lead to that thread "QUICKLY" being closed, as some have in the past.

Two things are for certain when it comes to load equalizing hitches and sway controls, for many owners.

1. They don't believe in Physics.

2. They are sacred, therefore nothing could possibly go wrong, for them.

Some owners that are Forum members, have made suggested changes, and at least all of them that have taken the time to make a post after "the change" have yet to say anything other than "positive" results.

I have recently written an article, that may or may not be published, in it's present form, in a national magazine, about hitches. It's historical and based on many facts and data.

Perhaps I should post it in our web site, for those to read, that are intested in "better and safer towing."

Load equalizing hitches, and their proper use, is not a rocket science subject. It is "basic Physics" and nothing more.

The huge mystery, of today is why so many are dis-believers. Yesteryear, had tons of believers back in the days
of tow vehicles being typically a large car.

Maybe it might be because of the "MYTHS" created by advertisers, who claim, their trucks can do "anything."

So much for creative advertizing, and kicking to the curb, "facts and data".

Andy
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Old 05-31-2009, 12:28 AM   #24
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Please! A weight distribution hitch is needed when the weight of the the hitch on the tow vehicle begins to remove weight off the front wheels and thus affects steering and control.
right on! but this refutes the story of the thread that does not address this basic concept. Steering and control (and acceleration) are not yes or no things but rather cover a spectrum that is influenced by very many factors. No one solution fits everyone.

Quote:
If you want to claim there are negative trade offs to using WD, then tell us what they are. Ive never come across a single one.
Have you seen the threads about people who figured a little was good so more was better and they used spring bars rated for well beyond their needs? I have a friend who moved from a 5th wheel to an Airstream and ditched the load leveling hitch because it caused a rough ride and had the trailer cushions on the floor. Have you looked at how many drivers moving rigs from manufacturer to dealer use load leveling and sway controls?

Perhaps another benefit is the false sense of safety - as we see here, it appears some think the proper hitch will make them safe and that may lead to overconfidence on the road.

As Andy says, there is physics involved. Look at that recent thread with the F150 sway control braking video - notice what they say is the primary cause of trailer sway. Also look at what Can Am Andy describes from his track tests.

You also have to be careful with people spouting physics, though. I have seen some offering grad theses from ME students with impressive mathematical models. The flaw is in the basic assumptions and it is amazing how few notice - or care. Then there is the problem of definitions, especially with sway where people have problems separating road handling with catastrophic incidents.

There are also significant problems with problem reports and crash stories - this is why crash investigation requires a bit more than somebody's say so or a simple compilation of events.

Quote:
2. They are sacred, therefore nothing could possibly go wrong, for them.
I could say things about the quality of this argument but it wouldn't be complementary so I won't. I do note, however that it turns the point of this discussion on its face. The point of the OP was that more regulation was needed to force everyone to follow a certain set of rules without regard to any ameliorating factors.

The reality is that there is always a risk. The vehicle you choose, the way you rig it, the way you drive, your experience, what distracts you on the road, all of these and more influence your safety on the road.

The very fact that the people who are being denigrated and impugned in this thread are going down the road and not off on the side upside down or jacknifed should say a lot about the spreading of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) on this topic.

Then of course, there is reaction to the heretical idea that reason and moderation should apply. That is also interesting.
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Old 05-31-2009, 09:03 AM   #25
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No doubt there is a need for WD in certain cases. Honda engineers do not recommend WD as long as you stay within the load parameters outlined in the owners manual for the Ridgeline. I will not presume to have greater knowledge than they have. Having towed our Safari for almost two years now under all kinds of conditions I never felt unsafe.
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:35 AM   #26
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Quote:
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re: " If you were sitting on my side of the desk taking the phone calls you might have a different opinion of the problems out there." - why doesn't this show in the statistics about crashes put out by the state? Who should I believe? Someone who sits behind a phone and tells me about a selected subset or state statisticians who look at the entire set of data? Or maybe my own eyes, which tend to indicate the state research is more in line with reality?
re:"why doesn't this show in the statistics put out by the state?"
Statistics don't talk to people in order to form an opinion.

re:"who should I believe?"
You should believe whatever you'd like to believe as long as those beliefs don't harm or infringe on others.

re:"Someone who sits behind a phone and tells me about a selected subset or state statisticians who look at the entire set of data?"
I don't think I said anywhere in the sentence you quoted that you should believe anyone. However, I did say you MIGHT have a different opinion.

re:"Or maybe my own eyes, which tend to indicate the state research is more in line with reality?"
Yes, our own eyes are ALWAYS in line with our own reality.




I'd be REALLY interested to read this state research. Can you point me to where it is published.
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Old 05-31-2009, 11:14 AM   #27
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I really like my Equalizer 4-Point WD, Sway Control hitch. I've been using it for 6 years now and have been very happy with it. Yes, there is a better hitch out there but it costs A LOT more than the Equilizer.

I, too, like to see what others are using (or not using) for WD and anti-sway control on the highways. What is see more often than not is frightening!
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Old 05-31-2009, 11:22 AM   #28
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Lack of education is a big factor. I am selling my 5000 lb 26' SOB trailer right now. I have already been asked if it can towed by a mini van. Unfortunately there are alot of RV salespeople who are misinformed or just simply want to make a sale. No matter what you have, some of them will tell you that you can tow a big heavy trailer with it.
Anything with a unibody will have difficulty towing a trailer that requires WD. The body is just not safely up to it.
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