Weight Ratios?

[Bluto]

I think I have a perfect set up right now as the truck and trailer ride really well. But, I'd like some opinions. Maybe I can make it even better. Do the weight ratios look OK?Going by the "seat of the pants" it's a smooth ride and a controlled drive in any conditions I've seen so far.

Here's the set up:

1 ton dually TV
27' FB 2010 Classic
Old Reese trunion WD bars rated at 1000 lbs.
Airsafe Hitch class V
Class V receiver hitch

Truck alone at scale with full fuel & empty bed:
Steering Axle 4480
Drive Axle 3660
Trailer Axles 0
Total 8140#

Loaded for travel, both truck and trailer hitched and wd bars in use w/ Airsafe hitch at 60 psi:

Steering Axle 4680
Drive Axle 5760
Trailer Axles 6960
Total 17,400#

[HowieE]

I am not sure how you can put 200 lbs. on the front axle of a 1 ton truck and even more confused as how you get 2,000 lbs on the rear axle of the truck with a 27 ft trailer. Are the numbers correct?

I would assume something more like 100+ on the front and 500+ on the rear. Remember if your trailer has a tongue weight of say 700 lbs and you are using a WD hitch the total between all axles, 2 truck plus the trailer set, should not exceed the tongue weight.

[2airishuman]

howie...

U appear to be ignoring PAYLOAD already IN the truck bed...

bluto could be carrying 1000 lbs PLUS of gear...

in fact i'd bet that's a given.
__________

b'

FINALLY some1 with a whooooopy cushion hitch provides scale readings...

NICE.

-looks like u are under the axle rating for truck AND 'stream...

-looks like u are under the gwr for the stream...

-looks like u are under payload/rating for truck...

-looks like u are under the gvwr for the truck and gCvwr too...

-with a tongue mass approaching 1000 lbs AND the hitch AND the camping gear in the truck...

this all reads nicely.

if it RIDEz nice too...cool.

the figures look good, so why push yer luck?

Originally Posted by Bluto

Maybe I can make it even better...

keep in mind this bit o' hijacked wisdom...

"perfect is the enemy of good"

or as written by that phamous phrench phella,

phrançois marie aroue

"le mieux est l'ennemi du bien.",
________

what air pressures are u running in the TRUCK and stream tires?

looks like u have capacity for another 12-1500 lbs IN the truck...

(so is yer wife included in the loadz already....)

cheers
2air'

[HowieE]

2air

Your assumption is about the only way those numbers could have been reached but that doesn't make for an "apples to apples" comparison on the hitch set up which was the question.

If had given the loaded weight of the truck and then the hitched weights we could comment on the hitch set up.

[2airishuman]

not 2 differ howie,

but the ? i read is about axle/weight ratios...

which eye reformulate 2 imply axle loads.

it IS tempting to wanna offer commentary on many other things...

like tongue weight, total trailer weight, bar selection, ball tilt, links, washers... and so on.

but B' has either NOT obtained those figures, or simply realizes...

it's ultimately the axle loads that matter here...

including REstoring steer axle loads to the base line.
_______

we could also quibble regarding 'ratios' vs % vs something else.

which might be of value to some but not to B'z bottom line.

since he is WELL under axle ratings all around and all capacities and limits...

KUDOS to da'man...

cheers
2air'

[slowmover]

Yeah, it'd be nice to know the truck weight loaded, but unhitched. The next trip to the CAT Scale should do it.

The ever-handy Ron Gratz [RV.net] chart might be of help in making it quick:

Weighing #1 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Activated

Let Front Axle Load be "FA1"

Let Rear Axle Load be "RA1"

Let TT Axles Load be "TT1"

Then, while in same position on scales, take
Weighing #2 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Not Activated

Let Front Axle Load be "FA2"

Let Rear Axle Load be "RA2"

Let TT Axles Load be "TT2"

Then, drive off scales and drop TT. Return to scales and take
Weighing #3 -- TV only -- TT Not Attached

Let Front Axle Load be "FA3"

Let Rear Axle Load be "RA3"

From the above values, you can calculate:

TV weight = FA3 + RA3

Gross Combined Weight = (FA1 + RA1 + TT1)
- should also be equal to (FA2 + RA2 + TT2) if scale weights are correct

TT Weight = Gross Combined Weight - TV Weight

Tongue Weight = (FA2 + RA2) - (FA3 + RA3)

Load Transferred to TT Axles
when WD System in Activated = TT1 - TT2


.

[Bluto]

Thanks for the comments.
As for tire pressures. I'm running Michelin XPS Ribs at 65psi on frt of truck, 60psi on the duals, and 65psi on the trailer with Goodyear Marathons 15 inch(D rated).
Those scale weights are of wife and 2 dogs included, plus me and all the other stuff in the truck.
Next trip will start in a few of weeks so I'll get the truck weighed again without the trailer, but loaded for travel. I might spring for a tongue weight scale of my own to finish the job of getting all the weights.
The numbers posted above are correct. I was surprised when I saw the heavy numbers too.
My first trip hooked up this way was 1580 miles and we just got back yesterday.
The next trip will be in excess of 3100 miles. I never really worry about being overloaded, just balanced out.
With the heavy weights the whole rig has a very nice ride. I noticed that the overload spring (extra spring on 1 ton) is not used when sitting still but probably is engaged when I hit a dip in the road.

[Sean Woodruff]

Originally Posted by REDNAX

Yeah, it'd be nice to know the truck weight loaded, but unhitched. The next trip to the CAT Scale should do it.

The ever-handy Ron Gratz

You lost me at Ron Gratz...

[slowmover]

There is some good info about the SHERLINE scale; I seem also to recall some notes about use in re different numbers recorded with only small changes; trailer stability, level, etc.

Pics anywhere of the rig?

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff

You lost me at Ron Gratz...

You don't want to think on the meticulous Mr. Gratz (posts frequently on RV.net on the "Towing" subforum, along with a regular cast of characters) and his penchant for detail in re numbers? (Ha!) (And folks around here think 2Air is tough). I do like what he comes up with (he is currently compiling a database from posts on scale readings which looks good). His stuff is an excellent addition as he strives to cite manufacturer, DOT or NHTSA or other authorities and lend understanding.

That group over there really enjoys problem-solving hitch rigging questions, but, as with any enthusiast group, beware of treading on consensus (sacred cows).

Yeah, Sean, had a few of them try to take me to task when I "tried" to point out that an important difference between the PP and the HA was in the adjustability of the former in comparison to the latter [PP hitch head versus HA non-adjustable stinger] . . was saving the trump of sending them to your website (that thread closed early) for another boiling-on-the-stove towing dispute to, I don't know . . just read it for themselves.

Experimentation means a lot in regards hitch rigging, and I do admire those who use a scale regularly, report, and photograph. We all get to learn.

Like the OP I too want the best ride . . but first is respect for the numbers.

.
.

[Bluto]

Unfortunatly, I have no pix of the rig. I have to wash it soon so I'll post some pics then and show the set up of the hitch. The Sherline is the scale I'm thinking of buying to check the tongue weight.
I wanted to borrow one from the local Airstream dealer where I bought my stream, but they just looked at me like I was a Martian. I guess they don't use them.

[slowmover]

I had my Hensley installed at ROGER WILLIAMS in Weatherford (ironically, bought the truck next door the week before) and I'd've bet Dave had one around (used to post here as well; but seems gone from both there and here). It's a disappointment, isn't it, that a "high end" dealer fails to own such a basic (and cheap) tool. Heck, my small engine repair shop owner has a $700 lawnmower blade balancer. And while some commercial mowers go for $15k, it's still not a decent comparison to the money invested in the TT and TV around here, new or used.

[Sean Woodruff]

Originally Posted by REDNAX

You don't want to think on the meticulous Mr. Gratz (posts frequently on RV.net on the "Towing" subforum, along with a regular cast of characters) and his penchant for detail in re numbers? (Ha!) (And folks around here think 2Air is tough). I do like what he comes up with (he is currently compiling a database from posts on scale readings which looks good). His stuff is an excellent addition as he strives to cite manufacturer, DOT or NHTSA or other authorities and lend understanding.

He comes up with a few good points from time to time but don't tell him I said so... I get too much business from his rants against me and my product. If he didn't exist, I'd have to hire someone to play him in the forums.

Originally Posted by REDNAX

Yeah, Sean, had a few of them try to take me to task when I "tried" to point out that an important difference between the PP and the HA was in the adjustability of the former in comparison to the latter [PP hitch head versus HA non-adjustable stinger] . . was saving the trump of sending them to your website (that thread closed early) for another boiling-on-the-stove towing dispute to, I don't know . . just read it for themselves.

You mean read it from actual customers using the product? THAT couldn't possibly mean anything could it? There's a CITRUS based company that arrogantly posts how they know everything, and my product doesn't work, and they "rejected" it because it didn't work... blah, blah, blah... I guess the 2500+ customers are all idiots in their minds. I do get it though, citrus is acidic and acidic thinking includes a whole host of self-destructive elements that denigrate and weaken and finally pulverize themselves into nothingness.

Originally Posted by REDNAX

Experimentation means a lot in regards hitch rigging, and I do admire those who use a scale regularly, report, and photograph. We all get to learn.

Like the OP I too want the best ride . . but first is respect for the numbers.

Yes, it really is that simple, isn't it?

[Jammer]

Be careful of anything on hitching that appears over at rv.net.

One of the the forum management was in a crash in the 1970s in a rig involving a full size sedan with air suspension and a trailer with no sway control. He subsequently swore off trailers entirely, has a motorhome now, and dispenses overly conservative advice based mainly on derating TV manufacturers' weights by 20%.

Lots of other people there with the "anything less than a diesel 1 ton can only pull a popup" mentality.

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff

---I get too much business from his rants against me and my product. If he didn't exist, I'd have to hire someone to play him in the forums.

Perhaps a sales commission would be in order?

If you agree, may I suggest your sending a contribution, commensurate with three years of beneficial ranting, to Habitat for Humanity International on my behalf?

It's tax deductible.

Ron

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Be careful of anything on hitching that appears over at rv.net.

Lots of other people there with the "anything less than a diesel 1 ton can only pull a popup" mentality.

Isn't that the truth! The Fred, Barney, and crew over there seem to be living in the dark ages of towing with so much dated info.

[Larry C]

Originally Posted by Bluto

I think I have a perfect set up right now as the truck and trailer ride really well. But, I'd like some opinions. Maybe I can make it even better. Do the weight ratios look OK?Going by the "seat of the pants" it's a smooth ride and a controlled drive in any conditions I've seen so far.

Here's the set up:

1 ton dually TV
27' FB 2010 Classic
Old Reese trunion WD bars rated at 1000 lbs.
Airsafe Hitch class V
Class V receiver hitch

Truck alone at scale with full fuel & empty bed:
Steering Axle 4480
Drive Axle 3660
Trailer Axles 0
Total 8140#

Loaded for travel, both truck and trailer hitched and wd bars in use w/ Airsafe hitch at 60 psi:

Steering Axle 4680
Drive Axle 5760
Trailer Axles 6960

Hey Larry,
Look's like you are on the right track....your truck weights and mine are pretty close, apparently, you carry quite a lot of "stuff" in your bed also.
Keep on "tweaking", and it shouldn't take too long to find the "sweet spot".

A lot of advice on the Forums, some of it good, some of it is a lot of hot air....but you gotta do what's best for you.

I've always checked the weights, if they're sorta close, and the truck is level, and the trailer is level, and there a bit of a "bend" in the W/D bars, you should be good to go.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

[slowmover]

I think some more reading over on RV.net is in order before saying that the "Towing" subforum isn't worth reading. I may tweak Mr. Gratz's tail, but that is more to his style than to who he is OR the substance with which he is trying to work.

Statements like this are useful:

The amount we need to distribute to the front axle is roughly equal to the amount which has been removed from the front axle. Typically, the amount removed from the front axle is equal to about 50% of the tongue weight. This has been confirmed by many scales reports. The actual percentage depends on TV wheelbase and ball overhang.

Scales data also indicate it is not uncommon for a properly-adjusted WD system to transfer a load equal to about 25% of tongue weight to the TT's axles. And, a pretty good rule of thumb is that the load transferred to the TV's front axle will be about 2 times the amount transferred to the TT; and the load removed from the TV's rear axle will be equal to about 3 times the load transferred to the TT. The actual multipliers depend on TV wheelbase, TV ball overhang, and distance from ball coupler to TT axles.

For example, a 1000# tongue weight, without WD, might remove about 500# from the front axle and add about 1500# to the rear axle. The WD system, when properly adjusted, might transfer 250# to the TT's axles.
The load transferred to the TT, in turn, could cause about 500# to be added back onto the front axle (giving a net change of about zero); and about 750# would be removed from the rear axle (giving a net addition of about 750#).

One can go after the suppositions, the hypotheses, which drive this statement, but the above is well-said. Worth copying or bookmarking for reference against other statements. What I read is someone trying to parse the numbers against the recommendations. One can speculate past that point -- on one's own -- but the attempt to correlate numbers against recommendations is basic.

Applying towing recommendations of TV manufacturer, hitch manufacturer, and TT manufacturer to a particular rig is no different there than here. There may be disagreement, and resistance to some things, but one would be pretty well served at either of these boards if the rig in question was 25' and a half-ton. The questions would be the same, and so would the responses.

Compare the above two Gratz quotes and combine it with this:

http://www.rvlifemag.com/file313/hitchhints.html

These two, alone, IMO, constitute a good start in setting up a hitch.

The questions of "why" are different questions. (And another set of bookmarks, quotes, etc).

There is a wealth of information on that board alone that one would miss out on if ignored. I have copied or bookmarked many good posts on brake wiring, wheel stud stretch, welding, etc, that all have to do with trailer components NOT to be found here for instance. Either/Or is a false dichotomy in re towing information and the different boards.

We would hope that consensus means change in the light of new information, corrected knowledge and applied experience. And there are none of us exempt from arm chair hypothesizing which we may later regret.

The OP has asked a reasonable [set] of questions in re his hitch rigging. The responses would be no different, thus far in the thread (despite a divergence I'm now sorry to have contributed to) on either board: complete scale numbers, please, and some more photos.

.

[wbrownrr]

REDNAX... A very thoughtful reply. I do have one question. In the RV Lifestyle article, what does Andy Thompson mean by using a 1/2" bolt "pushed through two overlapping links" to gain 1/3 of a link adjustment? It looks like I need about that much more tension, but I don't understand where he intends the bolt to go.

[slowmover]

He's indicating that a whole other link isn't called for, but "half a link" (thus the bolt). One may argue with this, keep in mind.