Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-30-2007, 11:25 AM   #15
2 Rivet Member
 
JimHoek's Avatar
 
1959 18' Traveler
Apeldoorn , The Netherlands
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 66
Images: 21
Send a message via Skype™ to JimHoek
Quote:
Originally Posted by richinny
if you ever had to change brakes, you'd really like having discs on that setup!
Ricky,
I gave that some serious thought, but I'm deeply into classics and keeping them all factory original, as far as that goes...
Regards, Jim.
__________________

__________________
Jim, WBCCI #3755 OCC #1580
The Netherlands
1959 Airstream 18ft Traveler
Avatar: 1957 Dodge Custom Royal Lancer D500
my pictures
JimHoek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2007, 02:23 PM   #16
Rivet Master
 
Wayward's Avatar
 
2006 25' Safari FB SE
Cary , North Carolina
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Adding "air shocks" or "air lifts" and inflating them to any more than absolute "minimum"pressure, will also defeat the purpose of the load equalizing hitch.

What you have proposed doing, "is" the cause of 2/3 rds (two thirds) of all loss of control accidents involving an Airstream or Argosy trailer.

The above information is based on researching the cause of "loss of control" accidents, and proven time and time again, on over 1,000 loss of control accidents.

Andy
Andy, I am quite interested in understanding how the air springs disrupt WD physics. Would you be so kind as to explain?

Scott
__________________

__________________
2006 Safari SE FB
2000 F150 4.2L
2011 F250 6.2L
Raleigh, NC
Wayward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2007, 02:44 PM   #17
Naysayer
 
Boondocker's Avatar

 
1968 24' Tradewind
Louisville , earth
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,635
Images: 7
Send a message via Yahoo to Boondocker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayward
Andy, I am quite interested in understanding how the air springs disrupt WD physics. Would you be so kind as to explain?

Scott
I agree, an explaination of the physics is always better than refering to experience that is not accessable by all. Experience without shared data is just opinion and one never knows how to evaluate it. Conviction alone doesnt get it. If the data isnt available to all, at the very least the physics ought to be. I have heard the arguement before that airshocks and load levelers are bad when using weight distribution, but so far noone has said why.
__________________
Rodney

Visit my photography page
and the
Favorite camp grounds project map
My Blog

(The artist formerly known as General Disarray)

Boondocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2007, 03:47 PM   #18
Rivet Master
 
SteveH's Avatar
 
2005 39' Land Yacht 390 XL 396
Common Sense , Texas
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,311
Oh boy...here we go!
__________________
SteveH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2007, 04:35 PM   #19
Rivet Master
 
richinny's Avatar
 
2011 34' Classic
Westchester Cty.NY , / Miami FL
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,122
i hear you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimHoek
Ricky,
I gave that some serious thought, but I'm deeply into classics and keeping them all factory original, as far as that goes...
Regards, Jim.
ingrid had a 55 t-bird. over the years there were some updates done. the old parts were kept and the revisions were used. the original parts went with the car. you might want to try that route, it made it safer to drive yet kept it "original".
__________________
Ricky
2012 F150 Super Crew 5-1/2' bed Ecoboost 4x4 3.73 elec. lock diff. Propride hitch
give life. kidney & pancreas transplant 9/9/06
Ingrid-my unofficial '"World's Oldest Streamer" 1909-2008 R.I.P.
richinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2007, 07:09 PM   #20
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayward
Andy, I am quite interested in understanding how the air springs disrupt WD physics. Would you be so kind as to explain?

Scott
Lets go back to the days of being kids and going to the playgrounds. All of us, I am sure, hopped on one end of a tetter-taughter. We had no problem riding one, even if at the other end from us, was a kid twice our size or weight.

All we did, was move the board to make it longer on our side, than the big kids side.

The physics of that was simply changing the "fulcrum" point.

The same thing happens when you use air lifts or air bags and inflate them above minimum pressure, or for that matter, having overload springs.

As you inflate them, you increasingly beef up the rear end suspension of the tow vehicle, which in turn defeats the purpose of a load equalizing hitch.

Any truck scale would confirm that.

The heavier duty the rear suspension becomes, it increasingly becomes a heavier or stronger "fulcrum."

When you attach the trailer to the ball, without using the torsion bars, because of the heavier duty rear end (fulcrum), you add weight the the rear of the tow vehicle, and subtract some weight from the front of the tow vehicle, which in turn, makes the front end behave just like it would be on ice.

When the torsion bars are hooked up to this same setup, it's purpose is to take weight away from the rear axle and move it forward to the front axle. The problem is that you cannot move much of that weight, because of the beefed up rear end, unless you have the front of the trailer and the rear of the tow vehicle, abnormally high.

Some people think the rig is ok, because everything is level. Not true.

The trailer should be level with respect to itself, and so should the tow vehicle, AND at the same time, the torsion bars should bend at least (in the case of Reese or Eaz-lift), 1 to 2 or more, inches. That means the torsion bars are doing their job. When they don't bend or bend very little, they are not moving any weight, therefore they become useless.

The more air pressure you add, the more chain links you will have under stress, and the less the bend. The less air, the less chain links you will have under stress, and the more bend.

In order for the bars to work correctly, when you have a beefed up rear end, you must raise the front of the trailer and the back of the tow vehicle perhaps 3 to 4 inches above level.

Visiting a truck scale, in all cases, measuring the before and after adding the additional air to air devices, will clearly show whats wrong.

Assuming, for sake of discussion, a tongue weight of 750 pounds. Using a proper rated hitch, proper installed and properly adjusted, 2/3 or 500 pounds of that tongue weight will go to the tow vehicle and 1/3 will return to the trailer axle or axles.

The 500 pounds that will be transfered to the tow vehicle, should be placed on each tire in the amount of 125 pounds, or 250 pounds on the tow vehicled front axle and 250 pounds on the tow vehicles rear axle.

In addition to that, if the tow vehicles rear end was carrying additional pay load, some of that additional payload weight can also be shifted to the front axle, as we used to do when cars were the primary tow vehicle.

Using a truck or a Suburban or the like, doesn't create any "magic" where proper hitching rules become different.

The key to safe towing and positive steering capabilities, is to have the front and rear axle of the tow vehicle weigh as near equal as possible.

When the rear axle of the tow vechicle starts carrying more that 50 percent of the total tow vehicles weight, handling starts to become an issue.

As an example, if that weight ratio changed to 60 percent on the rear and 40 percent on the front, safe handling would be long gone, simply because the front end had some of it's weight removed, back to the rear axle.

Adding air to air devices, and keeping the trailer level, will increasing move some of the front axle weight back to the rear axle, because of the beefed up "fulcrum."

I ran the reasearch program, where we did exactly what this subject is about. We changed the air pressure, then changed the links on the torsion arms, because of the added air pressure, and did it in steps of 10 PSI.

Therefore, it can be clearly stated, that as you add air to the air devices, you progressivle defeat the purpose of the load equalizing hitch.

A good example, that many unsuspecting owners did years ago, and basically because of their repair shops suggestion, was to add Monroe load leverlers to the rear of a car or truck.

That rendered the load equalizing hitch useless, immediately.

For those who disagree with the above, please take your rig to a truck scale asap, and before you make another trip.

If, anyone can refute the above, please do so with weights, and not opinions.

Even the Airstream factories back then, instantly changed their thinking, when the research data clearly demonstrated what overload springs and improperly inflated air devices would do.

Those devices amazingly accounted for 2/3 (two thirds) of ALL all the loss of control accidents while towing an Airstream or Argosy trailer.

That research and data on the causes, came from over 1,000 (one thousand) loss of control accidents.

If you differ with those statements, please, for your sake and your families, go to a truck scale, post haste.

Post the weights of the front axle, the rear axle, the brand of hitch, how much bend in the bars, and the trailer axle weights.

Also if possible, post what the ride is like at 60 MPH, when someone is in the rear of the trailer, AND, what happens when a semi truck passed you both overtaking you and going oppostite you, on a single lane road.

Some owners are not aware that if the are towing at 60 MPH, and a truck passes you going in the opposite direction at 60 MPH, that your rig is hit with a wind of 120 MPH, and as the wind oscillates back and forth, it decreases.

That data was captured on film, using a calibrated speedometer and an "air speed indicator." That oscillation would start at 60 MPH, (your speed) then as the truck front end met the front end of your tow vehicle, the air speed would rapidly go to 120MPH, 0 MPH, 110 MPH, 10 MPH, 100 MPH, 20 MPH, etc, until you were back at 60 MPH.

This oscillation, lasted for a few hundred feet, until it returned to your speed.

When the fun really started, was when a chain of semi's, passed you, one after another.

The air speed indicator, went for one wild ride.

The bottom line is, please don't assume how to rig, go with what is known and proven over and over again for at least 50 years.

All load equalizing hitches, "DO NOT" work the same. Advertizing is one thing, performance is another.

Torsion, and how you use it, is the key, not friction.

This subject was addressed quite some time back, in these Forums.

Andy
__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2007, 07:27 PM   #21
Naysayer
 
Boondocker's Avatar

 
1968 24' Tradewind
Louisville , earth
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,635
Images: 7
Send a message via Yahoo to Boondocker
Thanks Andy, thats a much clearer explaination. Do you still have access to all that data from the program you mentioned? It would be neat if it could be shared especially with all the engineers we have running around the forums. It seems to me that one issue would also be if the TV has the correct amount of resistance to downward force on the bumper. I am certian my F150 did not. I would think (not being an engineer) that too little resistance would be as bad as having to much resistance from springs.

I wonder how many people actually take their rigs out to the scales? I confess I have not, but I have been thinking about it for the new truck.
__________________
Rodney

Visit my photography page
and the
Favorite camp grounds project map
My Blog

(The artist formerly known as General Disarray)

Boondocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2007, 08:12 PM   #22
Rivet Master
 
87MH's Avatar
 
1978 31' Sovereign
Texas Airstream Harbor , Zavalla, in the Deep East Texas Piney Woods on Lake Sam Rayburn
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,435
Images: 292
Question on how far to "bend the bar"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
...When the torsion bars are hooked up to this same setup, it's purpose is to take weight away from the rear axle and move it forward to the front axle. The problem is that you cannot move much of that weight, because of the beefed up rear end, unless you have the front of the trailer and the rear of the tow vehicle, abnormally high....
Some people think the rig is ok, because everything is level. Not true.
The trailer should be level with respect to itself, and so should the tow vehicle, AND at the same time, the torsion bars should bend at least (in the case of Reese or Eaz-lift), 1 to 2 or more, inches. That means the torsion bars are doing their job. When they don't bend or bend very little, they are not moving any weight, therefore they become useless.
The more air pressure you add, the more chain links you will have under stress, and the less the bend. The less air, the less chain links you will have under stress, and the more bend.
In order for the bars to work correctly, when you have a beefed up rear end, you must raise the front of the trailer and the back of the tow vehicle perhaps 3 to 4 inches above level.
Visiting a truck scale, in all cases, measuring the before and after adding the additional air to air devices, will clearly show whats wrong.
Assuming, for sake of discussion, a tongue weight of 750 pounds. Using a proper rated hitch, proper installed and properly adjusted, 2/3 or 500 pounds of that tongue weight will go to the tow vehicle and 1/3 will return to the trailer axle or axles.
The 500 pounds that will be transfered to the tow vehicle, should be placed on each tire in the amount of 125 pounds, or 250 pounds on the tow vehicled front axle and 250 pounds on the tow vehicles rear axle.
In addition to that, if the tow vehicles rear end was carrying additional pay load, some of that additional payload weight can also be shifted to the front axle, as we used to do when cars were the primary tow vehicle.
Using a truck or a Suburban or the like, doesn't create any "magic" where proper hitching rules become different.

The key to safe towing and positive steering capabilities, is to have the front and rear axle of the tow vehicle weigh as near equal as possible.

When the rear axle of the tow vechicle starts carrying more that 50 percent of the total tow vehicles weight, handling starts to become an issue.
As an example, if that weight ratio changed to 60 percent on the rear and 40 percent on the front, safe handling would be long gone, simply because the front end had some of it's weight removed, back to the rear axle.
Adding air to air devices, and keeping the trailer level, will increasing move some of the front axle weight back to the rear axle, because of the beefed up "fulcrum."
I ran the reasearch program, where we did exactly what this subject is about. We changed the air pressure, then changed the links on the torsion arms, because of the added air pressure, and did it in steps of 10 PSI.........Post the weights of the front axle, the rear axle, the brand of hitch, how much bend in the bars, and the trailer axle weights.......This subject was addressed quite some time back, in these Forums.Andy
Andy:

This is a really good post.

Just this morning I ran the numbers on the '78 Sovereign - 1995 3/4 ton Dodge van.

I obviously need to do more work.

See this thread - http://www.airforums.com/forums/f219...ign-14737.html

I currently have about a 1" deflection on 1,000# Reese bars with 7 links below the cam lock.

I'm gald you addressed the "trailer front high" issue in your post.

How much of a "bend" in the Reese bars do you think I can put in it and still be safe?

On edit: - How far do you think should I go with the bars (including going to 1200# bars, if necessary) to approach the 50-50 rule on the van (somewhat different drive geometry than a conventional TV since there is, for all practicality, no front overhang).
__________________
Dennis

"Suck it up, spend the bucks, do it right the first time."

WBCCI # 1113
AirForums #1737

Trailer '78 31' Sovereign

Living Large at an Airstream Park on the Largest Lake Totally Contained in Texas
Texas Airstream Harbor, Inc.
87MH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2007, 11:44 PM   #23
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by 87MH
Andy:

This is a really good post.

Just this morning I ran the numbers on the '78 Sovereign - 1995 3/4 ton Dodge van.

I obviously need to do more work.

See this thread - http://www.airforums.com/forums/f219...ign-14737.html

I currently have about a 1" deflection on 1,000# Reese bars with 7 links below the cam lock.

I'm gald you addressed the "trailer front high" issue in your post.

How much of a "bend" in the Reese bars do you think I can put in it and still be safe?

On edit: - How far do you think should I go with the bars (including going to 1200# bars, if necessary) to approach the 50-50 rule on the van (somewhat different drive geometry than a conventional TV since there is, for all practicality, no front overhang).

Dennis.

Your going the wrong direction.

Instead of the 1000 pound bars, use 750 pound bars, certainly not 1200 pound bars.

A bend in Reese bars of 2 inches or more, will give you fantastic stability.

Reese bars are tested to bend 5 inches, will no ill effects.

Ideally, when using a Reese dual cam load equalizing hitch, you should have 5 chain links under stress. That will also place the torsion bars parallel to the trailer frame, and will maximize road clearance. 7 links is way too many. That also says that the rating of the torsion bars is too great and/or the ball mount angle is incorrect.

The more the bars bend, the more stability you create.

The less they bend, the less stability you will have.

Contrary to belief, just because your towing a 31 foot or 34 foot trailer, with a heavy duty tow vehicle, does not mean you need to have the maximum weight capacity hitch bars.

Again, and again, and again, the controversy and opinions start all over again, but how many concerned owners out of 1000 will take the time and effort, to do the truck scale routine, along with a little homework?

Probably less than one percent, if that many.

How very very sad, indeed.

Griping, bashing, moaning and groaning, slurs, bad mouthing, negative comments, opinions, guesses, he said, she said, they said, I forgot his name said, I thought, we thought, they thought, the mechanic said, the salesman said, seems to be the rule, when rigging a trailer to a tow vehicle.

But, doing the ONLY thing that really tells the true story, to all to many, is a waste of time.

Laying in bed in a hospital, recovering from injuries from a loss of control accident, is a far bigger waste of time.

Of course, being in that final box, so that people can stare at you and say their final "fairwells," is the ultimate waste of time.

I had to personally, visit with families from both of the above, to work out the insurance claim.

Try that on for size, a few times, and I promise you, you will shake your head in wonderment, as to why so many people, don't heed warnings, or do the ultimate to assure towing safety. Makes it very difficult, to fall asleep at night, after one of those visits.

Being safe, sometimes takes some extra effort and expense. Safety has no budget. If you can't afford to be safe towing, then for heavens sake, and your own, get rid of the trailer

Take the time, make the effort, spend what is necessary, and strive to be as safe as you can. Budget be damned. Safety has no budget.

Your family, relatives and friends, will all love you more, each time they see you, ALIVE.

Andy
__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2007, 12:01 AM   #24
Naysayer
 
Boondocker's Avatar

 
1968 24' Tradewind
Louisville , earth
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,635
Images: 7
Send a message via Yahoo to Boondocker
How many hitch dealers have scales on the lot, or suggest that the owner of the TV go back and forth from the scales untill the optium set of bars and settings is found?

I dont think all the blame can be laid on the shoulders of owners, most of which are depending on vendors to pass on the appropriate information. For most users hitch settings are determinded from advice from other owners and seeing how the rig handles. Maybe not the best system, but there it is.

By the way Andy, the 2 inches of flex information is good to know. I hadnt seen that before. Is that rule of thumb from Reese? The business of having the bars parallel to the frame is good also.
__________________
Rodney

Visit my photography page
and the
Favorite camp grounds project map
My Blog

(The artist formerly known as General Disarray)

Boondocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2007, 04:10 AM   #25
Rivet Master
 
rideair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,223
Andy's advice works!

Being someone that has four different "TV's", 2002 Excursion, 2001 F-250, 1968 Travelall, 1962 Galaxie Conv., each one has their own setup(though the F-250 and the Excursion are close to being the same).

With the 1962 Galaxie Conv, which has got to have the longest leaf springs in the rear of any car ever made, much of what needed to be done was in the adjustment of the "pitch of the head". I too (at first) thought when the rear went down when hitched, I needed "bigger bars". I found, by adjusting the head pitch and 880lbs bars, I'm on the 5th link, car/trailer return to the correct stance and the car drives as it does without the trailer. What I have also found, by having the braking "correctly" setup, the car stops at a shorter distance. Back in 1969 (I think) "Road and Track" did a story on this very subject using different size Airstreams and TV's.

For all I know, Andy could have taken part in this story. Andy???

If you have differnet TV's, as I do, take Andys advice, set "each" of them up as needed, have them weighed and you will be a much happer camper, your family and camper will be too!
__________________
Paul Waddell
rideair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2007, 09:41 AM   #26
Just an old timer...
 
85MH325's Avatar

 
Tipton , Iowa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,031
Images: 37
This is undoubtedly one of the best threads on this subject to date. Andy, thanks for taking the time for that excellent explanation. Sending Karma your way.

Roger
__________________
AIR 2053 Current: 2006 Born Free 32 RQ Kodiak Chassis, & 1995 Coachmen B-van
Former Airstreams: 1953 Flying Cloud, 1957 Overlander, 1961 Bambi, 1970 Safari Special, 1978 Argosy Minuet, 1985 325 Moho, 1994 Limited 34' Two-door, 1994 B190 "B-Van"
85MH325 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2007, 09:56 AM   #27
USN/LAPD Retired
 
Safari-Rick's Avatar
 
2005 25' Safari
North Las Vegas , United States
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 850
Ditto Andy. Always a pleasure to read your input.

R/
Safaari-Rick
__________________
2007 Dodge Ram Quadcab 6.7L Diesel w/jakebrake

"Better to have more then you need, then need more then you have because you don't have enough!"
AIR #: 8129
Safari-Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 10:03 PM   #28
2 Rivet Member
 
JimHoek's Avatar
 
1959 18' Traveler
Apeldoorn , The Netherlands
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 66
Images: 21
Send a message via Skype™ to JimHoek
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimHoek
For my 1959 AS 18ft Traveler - weighing 2100 lbs. and having a 250 lbs Tongue weight - and a 1957 Dodge passenger car as TV (new shocks and heavy spring leafs), what would be the most applicable WD and SC?

A part# would be the most appreciated...
Reese’s Internet site is a little confusing to me, because it doesn’t show me a clear part number for any application. I have e-mailed Reese several times but didn't receive any reply, so far. Though I like Reese's for their old time appearance (w/chains), not answering any e-mail doesn’t give me a confident feeling about their products.

So, I think it’s going to be an Equal-i-zer. Part number 90-00-0600
__________________

__________________
Jim, WBCCI #3755 OCC #1580
The Netherlands
1959 Airstream 18ft Traveler
Avatar: 1957 Dodge Custom Royal Lancer D500
my pictures
JimHoek is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Weight Distribution and Sway kl8ton 1970 - 1973 Sovereign 12 07-31-2005 07:32 PM
Equalizer Hitches & Sway Control for a 28' AS redeagle313 2002 - 2005 International 11 02-14-2005 10:16 AM
Do I need sway control, weight bars and a good tow vehicle? Silvertwinkie Hitches, Couplers & Balls 28 07-19-2004 08:42 AM
I need sway control AND weight distribution? TBKP's Overlander Hitches, Couplers & Balls 19 07-03-2003 09:54 AM
Education on Sway & Weight Distribution John Our Community 7 01-28-2003 03:48 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.