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Old 10-06-2012, 02:08 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff View Post
I always find this logic interesting.

Why is it that people buy more camping shelter than they need? Such as an Airstream. Some might say a very expensive camping shelter when compared to a tent. Yet, in the very next thought people will say a person shouldn't buy more than they need in a hitch. Interesting, huh?

The different value systems in each of us certainly are a wonder that none of us will ever be able to figure out.

And, please don't read this as passing judgment on one thought or the other. I'm just commenting on it being interesting in the fact that the same criteria isn't used for different products that we choose to purchase with our money.


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Tut! tut! You're quoting me here Sean, so I'll have to insist on more accuracy about what I said! (smiley face here)

I didn't say people shouldn't buy more hitch than they need. What I challenged was the single methodology of selecting a hitch. One in which you always buy the best performance (Hensley or Pro-pride). That was REDNAX's advice. His advice was singular, and I felt too narrow.

My commentary was to explain that his advice is just one out of many recognized methods of analysis. That one he advised would be suitable for some people, but possibly not suitable for all people. For instance it isn't suitable for me because I use a value-utility form of analysis.

My commentary then wasn't about scolding people for buying more than they need, it was about explaining that there are many ways to determine those needs that go beyond the simplistic advice to "just buy the most expensive hitch". Here's the key sentence I used Sean:
"The method one chooses should be related to their own circumstances and not just some generic choice to "spend the most to get the most."
Is that something you disagree with - people analyzing based on their individual circumstances? Because I think it is crucial.

I don't believe in one-size-fits-all generic solutions to every problem. For example, if a guy tells me he would like a pickup truck, I wouldn't tell him to just, "Go buy a one ton crew cab diesel dually!" I'd ask him what he intends to haul, and how far, and how often, and how much he has to spend. In other words I'd suggest he do some critical analysis and thinking to discover his needs and find the appropriate match.

Your last comment claims as fact that I suggested, or intimated, that different criteria should be used for buying different products. Oh my Sean! That's quite a ways off base! Let me refute that so there is no misunderstanding possible! The only recommendation I made about buying products was that people should select a "method of analysis that is based on one's individual circumstances." And that recommendation should apply to hitches, what you call "camping shelters," or tow vehicles alike. I never suggested different criteria for different products.

And please Sean - don't think I am passing any judgement here on your comments or your products. I was only interested that my post not be misrepresented as something it wasn't.

I think it is really great that the owner of a hitch company is here to give advice and comments! But I also sincerely hope that others who don't happen to own hitch companies are also allowed to offer their suggestions too.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:44 AM   #58
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The wonderful thing about a forum is the wide range of ideas, experiences and opinions expressed. The reader usually acquires an insight or two to reinforce their line of thought or perhaps suggest more research before making a decision.

As a complete new comer to the RV towing world, and in my case, an Airstream unit will be my first experience, I read to learn what has worked and what has been problematic. I read why some like like short and others like long units. I learned who were some of the resident "experts" that many folks referred to in their discussions.

I learned that one did not need a Kenworth or supersized diesel pickup to tow a trailer and that a SUV could work well. I learned about hitches and peoples experiences with a smaller tow vehicle and larger trailers.

As a result of the comments on this and other forums, lots more on-line research and talking with other owners, I made the decision to change the Airstream trailer order from a 19' Flying Cloud to a 25' International Serenity, to change my hitch from a Reese dual cam to a Hensley, to take my Mercedes ML diesel to Can-AM to have the hitch reinforced and have a brake controller that works well installed while there. I learned about other worth while accessories that are being fitted before delivery.

I learned about maintenance issues and solutions, speed suggestions etc. I will also offer my experiences when they happen.

Thanks for sharing!
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Old 10-06-2012, 05:25 AM   #59
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The tow vehicle isn't very important.

The hitch -- and the brakes -- are important.

The best hitch is not ever expensive, and the utility of same is unmatched by lesser choices.

.
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:59 AM   #60
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Sean, simple answer. "Want" over rules "need" in many cases. The only reason to own an Airstream over SOB is "want" pure and and simple. As to hitches, I see no reason at all to buy a heavy, expensive, over priced hitch system when a simpler and less expensive system will work just as well in most cases. In My Opinion.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:52 AM   #61
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mstephens - I agree with all of that but I still find it interesting. Different criteria IS used for purchasing different products. An Airstream isn't purchased through the filter of "solving a shelter problem." Some people purchase a product that is engineered to match more criteria and do not do it through the "solving a problem" filter. I think many people who do not own the ProPride 3P (or Arrow) believe that most people purchase it to "solve a towing problem." I can tell you that about 80% of my customers (Airstreamers overwhelmingly are in this category) DO NOT purchase it to solve a towing problem. They purchase it to have the best chance of preventing a problem if the conditions that cause a problem exist. And, if one tows a trailer long enough, many conditions will eventually line up and exist.

awchief - Yes, wants and needs. I prefer to use criteria. As for the heavy, over-priced opinion you have I would also find it interesting that the criteria you base that opinion on is not used on other products. You clearly don't use the same criteria for purchasing camping shelter. Interesting, huh?



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Old 10-06-2012, 11:55 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff View Post
mstephens - I agree with all of that but I still find it interesting. Different criteria IS used for purchasing different products. An Airstream isn't purchased through the filter of "solving a shelter problem." Some people purchase a product that is engineered to match more criteria and do not do it through the "solving a problem" filter. I think many people who do not own the ProPride 3P (or Arrow) believe that most people purchase it to "solve a towing problem." I can tell you that about 80% of my customers (Airstreamers overwhelmingly are in this category) DO NOT purchase it to solve a towing problem. They purchase it to have the best chance of preventing a problem if the conditions that cause a problem exist. And, if one tows a trailer long enough, many conditions will eventually line up and exist.

awchief - Yes, wants and needs. I prefer to use criteria. As for the heavy, over-priced opinion you have I would also find it interesting that the criteria you base that opinion on is not used on other products. You clearly don't use the same criteria for purchasing camping shelter. Interesting, huh?



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Sean,
You might be making assumptions about everyone's methods. When you declare, "An Airstream isn't purchased through the filter of "solving a shelter problem." How do you know it isn't chosen through solving a shelter problem for some people? Really, that's quite a claim you are making there!

Let's give it a try, ok? I'll set out some parameters to define my problem, I'll devise a solution, and you tell me if that is "problem solving" or not.

PROBLEM - Camping Shelter Choice

I have a desire to camp travel extensively. Here's my list of requirements for a camping shelter:
  1. Bedroom: Must have a comfy queen sized bed for two people with severe arthritis. Since we travel for weeks, must have closet and storage space
  2. Kitchen: Must have a full kitchen so we can cook regular meals. We need burners, oven and a microwave as well as a refer and freezer to store food. We need enough storage space for cooking and eating utensils, and of course packaged food.
  3. Dining: We need a comfortable dining area for two which can also double as a workstation since one of us will be working on the road. That means computers, papers, mice, and all the usual work tools.
  4. Comfort: We will be traveling year round and do not want to be wet, blown apart by wind, or suffer heat stroke. So, we need an HVAC system capable of making an environment comfortable - say 62F to 90F as the extremes.
  5. We have a budget and can not spend more than $75K.
  6. We would like it to last for 15 years of moderate to heavy use.
  7. We have to be able to store it in front of our house.
My selection logic in brief:
- Tents don't meet most of the requirements
- PU campers might work, but be so crowded as to be too much sacrifice.
- Motorhomes are out of the budget
- Trailers would work - but which ones?
- Most trailers won't last the 15 years we want to get
-Voila! A 25 Flying Cloud seems to meet all the requirements. Problem solved!


How is that not problem solving Sean?
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:03 PM   #63
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Quote:
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Sean,
PROBLEM - Camping Shelter Choice
Why is "Camping Shelter Choice" a problem?
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:34 PM   #64
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Sean, the Pro-pride is a great hitch as many have found. I wanted one when I bought my first Airstream in 2009 but the dealership (whom I don't regard highly) gave me a bunch of grief about it. Hard to install, leave your tow truck here with the trailer for service, Equal-I-Zer just as good for the money, that sort of stuff.

Different dealers push or discourage different products, and like on this thread can justify anything they say.

doug k
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:38 PM   #65
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........................................

An AS trailer connected to a well chosen TV doesn't have a lot of sway - really. And some combinations really have none to speak of. It's simplistic in the extreme to imagine that everyone with an AS trailer has an extreme sway problem needing a very expensive hitch. Would that kind of analysis be useful to a person on a budget? I don't think so. Should every person buy more than they need? I don't think so.

.................................................. ....................................

.
As long as we are gonna to analyze what you really said, I have a problem of what you said above and what I believe it implies. First of all every tow vehicle and everything towed in a real world will have some degree of sway. That is an absolute fact. There is no such "none to speak of". This is because no matter how well you design the components, there will always be external forces beyond your control that cause some degree of sway to be induced. The purpose of all the sway control systems is to keep this to a minimum. The reason for this is primarily safety. I don't think that it is a point of dispute that some systems do it to a greater degree than others. I think it is also obvious to state that all other factors being equal, the hitch system that reduces sway to the greatest degree is safer to tow with. So what this all boils down to is how big a gamble are you going to take with your safety. I agree that no one choice fits all, because we all are willing to gamble to some degree or we wouldn't be towing a trailer simply for pleasure. We would drive an automobile and stay in resorts. However this is not a case of going up the choice of hitches from bottom to top and stopping at the one that achieves total safety. Total safety is not achievable.

My personal choice is to scrimp on luxuries and spend the maximum on safety. It is also my desire that others do the same. Somewhere down the road, their choice of less than maximum safety may have a devastating affect on me.

Ken
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:41 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Sean, the Pro-pride is a great hitch as many have found. I wanted one when I bought my first Airstream in 2009 but the dealership (whom I don't regard highly) gave me a bunch of grief about it. Hard to install, leave your tow truck here with the trailer for service, Equal-I-Zer just as good for the money, that sort of stuff.

Different dealers push or discourage different products, and like on this thread can justify anything they say.

doug k

Yeah, that's the reason I have never based my business (ProPride or Hensley) on dealers being able to sell the product. Most dealers want to "sell" the product to "their" customer is when they call me and ask for their dealer discount.

It usually goes something like, "My customer wants your product, what's my discount?"

Thanks for wanting one...
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:53 PM   #67
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2 cents...

Switz, your post there a few back indicates to me that you're going to be in excellent shape with that rig set up the way those guys will do it. Good show!

I've used the Reese Dual Cam and it's a good hitch. Personally, I prefer the Equal-I-Zer over it because I don't like messing with the chains. But to each their own; I see that comparo as a Ford vs. Chevy kind of thing. Both are good.

Sean's hitch is heads and shoulders better than either of the previous mentioned two. Simply physics dictates it. I will have one some day (if I don't get one of those Avion 5th wheels first )

See you on the road,
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:47 PM   #68
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Yeah, that's the reason I have never based my business (ProPride or Hensley) on dealers being able to sell the product. Most dealers want to "sell" the product to "their" customer is when they call me and ask for their dealer discount.

It usually goes something like, "My customer wants your product, what's my discount?"

Thanks for wanting one...
Hi, Sean. So as a manufacture of an RV product, you don't wholesale or jobber to retailers? Does that mean that a retailer has to buy your product at retail/list price and have to mark it up to make a profit? I find this very unusual for a retailer to sell a product at list price and not make any profit from it.
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:51 PM   #69
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Why is "Camping Shelter Choice" a problem?
Because there are conflicting variables, a possibility of several choices, and a promise of compromises that one must endure. Isn't that what defines a "problem?"
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:03 PM   #70
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Hi, Sean. So as a manufacture of an RV product, you don't wholesale or jobber to retailers? Does that mean that a retailer has to buy your product at retail/list price and have to mark it up to make a profit? I find this very unusual for a retailer to sell a product at list price and not make any profit from it.

No, not as standard practice. If a retailer can explain the value they bring to the table I do work with them. But, I'm a "you work for what you get" kind of guy. If a dealer thinks they get a discount because they are a dealer I don't think that works in today's world. Most dealers don't understand the hitch, don't take the time to understand it and lump it in with all the other hitches. They literally want to be compensated for something because they sell something else. I just can't get my head around that thinking. If I called an Airstream dealer and said, "I manufacture and sell hitches and one of my customers wants an Airstream, what's my price?" they would laugh at me.

I don't expect ANYONE to sell a product and not make a profit. I do expect them to SELL the product to make a profit.
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