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Old 09-01-2008, 04:23 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ron Gratz View Post
I believe the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 tongue weight distribution "guideline" is one of those towing myths which sounds good; but seldom, if ever, is actually achieved. And, such a distribution, if it could be achieved, probably is not desirable.

If one considers that a typical TV might have its front/rear axle load at 55%/45% before the TT is attached, then having the tongue weight equally distributed to the front and rear axles would not produce the recommended equal front/rear axle load when towing (which might be another towing myth).

Many people have reported being quite frustrated when trying to achieve a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 distribution or even just an equal distribution of tongue weight to the TV's front and rear axles. For the vast majority of TV/TT combinations, neither of these objectives can be achieved.

Ron
I disagree.

Theory and math don't solve the problem.

Get out in the field, as I have for 42 plus years, and the myths and theory's generated from ideas, is the very thing that causes "MASS" confusion over something so simple and basic that some people insist in making a formula as complicated as the atom bomb, for it.

What your saying "can't be done", I have done thousands of times, over and over again.

Is it always possible? No. Why? because some owners want to have Queen Mary tow vehicles, when that is so unnecessary to adequately and properly tow an Airstream.

Even a Manufacturer, such as Reese, who publishes a "chart' are wrong.

They say I should use a 1700 hitch to tow a 31 foot Airstream. WOW.

How ridiculus, since I tow with a Petrbuilt truck. They say the tow vehicle doesn't matter. How corny. I just proved that it matter.

A few members of this Forums have very recently, downgraded the rating of the hitch bars, that all hitch manufacturers disagree with.

But, not a single person has come back after changing and said, "IT'S WORSE". They have all said "MUCH BETTER".

I did research many years ago as to what causes loss of control accidents, and proved them in over 1000 (one thousand) cases.

Unfortunately, most travel trailer owners don't have a clue as to what is "proper and safe" hitch rigging.

For that matter, RV sales people, probably 98 percent of the time, don't have a clue either.

Most RV shops don't have clues either.

With all those people out there, that should know, but don't know, it's a wonderment as to why more people don't get kiiled, listening to theory and opinions.

Facts is what this is about. I have stated it before, many times over. Those that listened and changed, are now the "true in the hitching know, happy campers."

Those that have changed also now, after the fact, are no longer a "white knuckle" tower.

Please do some physical research before you hog wash the formulas and first hand experiences, as reported by many
owners.

This subject can be kicked around just like the Marathon tires.

I, frankly, will no longer get into this discussion, with anyone that states an opinion, instead of researched facts.

The average Airstreamer, wants help provided by facts, not opinions or theory's.

Opinions are just that, with no fact or foundation.

Andy
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Old 09-01-2008, 04:28 PM   #16
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I think you are going to have a hard time because of the weight from the Deisel engine. If it is level I would roll with it. I have also read with l3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks go with lighter torsion bars. suspension is heavy duty and they say an Airstream like a soft ride. I like more weight on my drive tires, thats just me but my unit is level
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Old 09-01-2008, 04:33 PM   #17
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I think the proper procedure starts...
that does make good sense from the procedural side and will get most folks close.

the problem is understand what's happening to the load distribution, or guessing about loads without measuring them.

many 4get that 1000 lbs at the ball is 1200-1500 lbs at the rear axle (depending on overhand/lever length) withOUT w/d...

to understand the what's happening side and the math issues, nicks thread is a great start.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...sis-19236.html

but alot of eyes glaze and d'brains don't make it through to the whole story.

so weighing helps, as you have done, except for truck baselines.

these 250s are listed at 7500 or so curb weights, with a front more front bias for the diesel version.

as i recall my truck is about 83-8,500 loaded (i've got the scale tickets to post),

which brings it VERY CLOSE to the 10k rating when hitched up.

my w/d goal (apart from the levelness issues) is restore original front axle loads,

then evaluate the drive dynamics and make further tweaks based on that and more weighing.

getting to 50/50 on the tv axles gives the best steering feel 4me.

every few 100 lbs rear bias lightens the steering some and increases flex at the junction...

as an experiment i towed 3500 miles with almost NO w/d bar tension...

while the steering was very light, i adapted in a few 100 miles, but the truck needed more steering in put routinely.

and i didn't like the feel in the mountains or on long fast descents or on wet roads with the lighter front end.

the big deal was tire wear, about 4/32nds MORE wear happened on the drive tires in just 3500 miles.

so now my goal is about 500 lbs more on the drive tires, once the trailer is level and the steer axle is back to baseline.

there are LOTS of right answers to the issue. math, weighing and historical myths get us there.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-01-2008, 04:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dpandorf View Post
Do you think its possible I may have my springs too tight? My F250 has a GCWR of 10,000 pounds.

My current setup has these results:

Front Axle 5240 lbs, Rear Axle 5200 lbs and the trailer 7540 lbs.

I have a 2000 Classic with a GVWR of 9800 lbs.

My trailer is level after adjusting the W/D and getting these weights.
Your rig has a near as perfect weigh distribution setup.

The other question is what rating hitch bars?

You can accomplish your results using super heavy duty bars and light bars.

The difference, is the amount of road shock that you will transfer to the trailer.

Heavy bars, in a case like yours, gets great results, but cna cause the trailer to get beaten to death, because of a rough ride.

Using softer bars, will still transfer the weights properly, as long as they are adjusted correctly, but they will greatly reduce the road shock that goes thru the TV suspension and into the trailer.

An ideal test, is to have the weight distributed as you have, "AND" while boucing up and down on the coupler, you cause the coupler to move vertically 2 to 3 inches.

With that setup, the weight will be properly distributed, and the road shock will not harm the trailer.

There is far more to consider with a weight distributing hitch, other that what it's name implies.

Ask those that changed for the better.

Andy
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Old 09-01-2008, 04:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
...

the big deal was tire wear, about 4/32nds MORE wear happened on the drive tires in just 3500 miles.

so now my goal is about 500 lbs more on the drive tires, once the trailer is level and the steer axle is back to baseline.

there are LOTS of right answers to the issue. math, weighing and historical myths get us there.

cheers
2air'
Well I may reduce some of my tension see how that "feels" until I can weight it again.

Currently in West Palm working, left the family at Yellowstone's Edge Campground and will fly back there on Wednesday.

www.mtrv.com

check out their live webcam and you can see us parked in the north quadrant.

Here's a shot she just sent me:
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Old 09-01-2008, 04:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
Your rig has a near as perfect weigh distribution setup.

The other question is what rating hitch bars?

You can accomplish your results using super heavy duty bars and light bars.

The difference, is the amount of road shock that you will transfer to the trailer.

Heavy bars, in a case like yours, gets great results, but cna cause the trailer to get beaten to death, because of a rough ride.

Using softer bars, will still transfer the weights properly, as long as they are adjusted correctly, but they will greatly reduce the road shock that goes thru the TV suspension and into the trailer.

An ideal test, is to have the weight distributed as you have, "AND" while boucing up and down on the coupler, you cause the coupler to move vertically 2 to 3 inches.

With that setup, the weight will be properly distributed, and the road shock will not harm the trailer.

There is far more to consider with a weight distributing hitch, other that what it's name implies.

Ask those that changed for the better.

Andy
Thanks for your input Andy, I'll check that when I get back to the campground.

Plus I received the new skylight and will install it when I get back. But as you can see from my photo the mountains got a little dusting today.
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Old 09-01-2008, 04:46 PM   #21
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---What your saying "can't be done", I have done thousands of times, over and over again.
It would be interesting to see the scales results from just one these examples. And, I'm not talking about towing with a 1970 Oldsmobile. As a previous poster stated,
"it may have been important or useful in the sedan daze of towing when lifting the drive axle was possible...
or in the single axle short trailer era."
I assume the OP has a somewhat more modern TV, and I was addressing his question.

Quote:
I did research many years ago as to what causes loss of control accidents, and proved them in over 1000 (one thousand) cases.
It also would be very interesting to see some of the results from your research. Perhaps you could provide a summary some time.

Quote:
Please do some physical research before you hog wash the formulas and first hand experiences, as reported by many
owners.
I have read the reports from many owners who have properly measured their TV and TT axle loads before and after hitching. I have never found anyone who has come close to a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 distribution.

Ron
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Old 09-01-2008, 04:55 PM   #22
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Do you think its possible I may have my springs too tight? ...My trailer is level after adjusting the W/D and getting these weights.
well level is good and a primary goal.

as to the question of too much, the issue is 2much for the truck or trailer or hitch?

max flex (with your gear) doesn't hurt the truck or hitch, not one bit.

and it SHOULD NOT hurt the trailer. a 9-12,000 lb trailer with 1000lb+ tongue, needs a big tow beast.

but the wimpy tongue/frame beams on new 'streams DO flex some even with the PROPER GEARING...

we covered that issue here.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/sear...archid=1182696

a/s clearly needs to BEEF UP these frames.

and they HAVE DONE JUST THAT on the pan american (at least the back half) model...

NOW they need to address the front of these big heavy trailers, if that wasn't part of the pan-am tweaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
...Using softer bars, will still transfer the weights properly, as long as they are adjusted correctly...

you cause the coupler to move vertically 2 to 3 inches....
as you know duane, from reading the cat scale thread, andy gave the seal of approval to my efforts.

and i was able to get the ideal axle loading with 1000 lb bars.... INITIALLY at max tension.

so his suggestion i go DOWN to 750 lb bars made no sense (haha didn't offer them then anyway) for a 1200lb+ tongue

but after a year+ of towing i could NO LONGER get those measurements, even with MAX bar tension.

so i went UP TO 1400 lbs bars and added another leaf to the stack (exact OPPOSITE of his rec.) and....

1. was able to restore the axle loads and get level again.
2. see NO ill effects on the trailer with another 25,000+ miles of towing.
3. in fact there is LESS tension on the trailer tongue and front end, and less vibration inside.

your truck has softer springs than mine, but i can REPORT from trying it (all 250lb o'me) that...

bouncing up and down on the receiver hitched up will NOT move the truck 2-3 inches.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-01-2008, 04:57 PM   #23
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dpandorf Thank you for letting me veiw the camera. That was so cool and being able to look around.Thank you. On another note I have seen people with 2 much bar on the hitch actually spin the tires climbing gravel roads in the campground. The configuration was a F150 and a 25 foot airstream. he had to get out and drop 2 links.
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:01 PM   #24
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Well I can say I've been very happy with the pull I've been getting with my combo. As I've said in previous posts I've only been towing for just over a year. With my setup I haven't had any of the white knuckle driving other than the occasional idiot that pulls in front of my on the interstate. High winds, semi-trailers, steep hills up or down, have not given me any feeling of being out of control or the white knuckle feeling.

I just want to ensure that I get the least wear out of tires, both on the truck and trailer and want to ensure I have the weight properly distributed.

I rotate my truck tires at every oil change (5,000 miles) and the trailer the same amount.
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:12 PM   #25
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...I rotate my truck tires at every oil change (5,000 miles) and the trailer the same amount.
as do i (although with syn 5-40 and an oil analysis that's been stretched to 7-8k for the oil)

the tire wear (properly inflated) with less w/d was DRAMATIC,

i measured it every 1000 miles and watched the rears just disappear.

one of the many nice things about using the haha is even when altering the w/d tension dramatically...

the basic anti-sway control doesn't change.

but with the front end lighter,

more steering input means more chances for the driver to screw things up...

and the camera link is VERY COOL, thanks for sharing that!

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:29 PM   #26
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---so now my goal is about 500 lbs more on the drive tires, once the trailer is level and the steer axle is back to baseline.
You first adjust the WD so the steer axle is back to baseline. Does that mean zero tongue weight is transferred to the steer axle?

Then, do you reduce the load on the WD bars so about 500# is put back on the drive tires?

Do you have some scales measurements which show the TV axle loads before the trailer is attached, in addition to measurements for the hitched combination both with and without WD applied?

Ron
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:31 PM   #27
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dpandorf Thank you for letting me veiw the camera. That was so cool and being able to look around.Thank you. On another note I have seen people with 2 much bar on the hitch actually spin the tires climbing gravel roads in the campground. The configuration was a F150 and a 25 foot airstream. he had to get out and drop 2 links.
Thanks Mustang,

The webcam is run by the campground and the photo is a screen capture from that camera.

I have a Hensley hitch and to reduce to increase tension you make adjustments to the spring jacks.
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Old 09-01-2008, 05:55 PM   #28
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...Do you have some scales measurements which show...
yes, many have been posted.

also have scale weights of EACH tire (truck and triple trailer) un-hitched.

and weights (steer/drive/trailer) at each turn of the haha screws jacks...

as suggested earlier "dozens" of these, collected about every 4-6 months.

no offensive intended but it's not my goal to engage you on this issue.

i've read first hand what happens on these and other forums, doing just that.

so i am not gonna go there.

cheers
2air'
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