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06-02-2009, 12:08 PM
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#1
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Towing myths
The following article, hopefully will be helpful to those interested in better hitch rigging and towing.
Towing myths
Andy
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06-02-2009, 12:33 PM
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#2
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4 Rivet Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 368
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I have a question. If my old school load leveling bars (w/o any sway control) adequately equalize the load on my tow vehicle, and I do not experience any sway to speak of (even up to 70mph), do I need sway control? I ask this because I am looking into updating my Globetrotter's hitch setup so that I can tow it with both my '06 Sequoia and my '69 Cutlass. According to Airstream, my tongue weight is 396# empty, so I would guess it closer to 500+ with full propane & fresh water tanks filled. I anticipate that I should be using 600# bars. Is this correct?
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06-02-2009, 12:38 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddster
I have a question. If my old school load leveling bars (w/o any sway control) adequately equalize the load on my tow vehicle, and I do not experience any sway to speak of (even up to 70mph), do I need sway control? I ask this because I am looking into updating my Globetrotter's hitch setup so that I can tow it with both my '06 Sequoia and my '69 Cutlass. According to Airstream, my tongue weight is 396# empty, so I would guess it closer to 500+ with full propane & fresh water tanks filled. I anticipate that I should be using 600# bars. Is this correct?
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Absolutely correct.
Using a Reese straight line would be perfect for your use.
Andy
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06-02-2009, 12:38 PM
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#4
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moderator
Commercial Member
2016 27' International
Currently Looking...
Wilton
, California
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,711
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Hey.. this is the document that you have been teasing us with for awhile..
I will read it intently..
Thanks Andy.
Vinnie
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06-02-2009, 01:01 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlamica
Hey.. this is the document that you have been teasing us with for awhile..
I will read it intently..
Thanks Andy.
Vinnie
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Vinnie.
Your welcome.
Hitching negativity abounds from many sources.
It's more than past time for someone to publish information that is useful.
Many people gripe and find fault with everything and anything about hitching, load equalizing hitches and sway controls.
Yet, not a single one of them, has taken the time or made the effort to be helpful, "in a positive way."
I made that choice in spite of that, and sincerely hope that it saves someones injury, or worse.
If it does, and it will, over and over again, then it did it's intended job.
Andy
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06-02-2009, 01:25 PM
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#6
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2 Rivet Member
1991 34' Limited
Currently Looking...
White Pigeon
, Michigan
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 53
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Thanks
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06-02-2009, 02:16 PM
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#7
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2 Rivet Member
2009 19' International
Calgary
, Alberta
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 69
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Hi
Great article - thanks for posting! There were a few things I found surprising and counterintuitive to some extent, especially the part about using lighter rated bars with heavier tow vehicles. My guess is that the heavier the suspension (i.e. with larger TVs) the less weight needed to transfer to the front axle?
What I found surprising is that the whole loss-of-control phenomenon seems so poorly understood. One would think that the RV industry as a whole would want to sponsor this type of research to help design their products for greater safety.
Speaking from personal experience, we recently installed a Reese straight line system with 600lb bars to our Tundra / 19' Bambi setup and the difference it made to overall handling, control and ride was dramatic. Case-in-point, we towed a few hours home the other weekend and while unpacking we noticed that we had left our 2 stainless steel wine glasses out on the table from the previous night. They were still standing upright.
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06-02-2009, 02:30 PM
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#8
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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Dear Sir,
You had me by the whatchees a couple of years ago when I first came across a reference to, The Twelve Questions, and I'm afraid I pestered the issue a few times to learn what-was-what. I have seen and said thanks on another thread for them, and now I want to say thanks for having ALL the basics in one place that you have so often cited; this will be easy to cite for others, so, more thanks!!
Yours,
P.S. (I can't resist) Any more on the possible revival of the Safe-T-Tow (name & spelling?); the near-patented or patented electrical anti-sway device Inland offered so many years ago? With the right hitch and rigging, an excellent brake controller, the above device sounded like icing on the cake for automatic side-to-side application of the trailer brakes in the event of sway. (Sounds similar to what the OEM's are now claiming to offer).
Thanks, (yet again).
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06-02-2009, 02:45 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeheel
Hi
Great article - thanks for posting!
What I found surprising is that the whole loss-of-control phenomenon seems so poorly understood. One would think that the RV industry as a whole would want to sponsor this type of research to help design their products for greater safety.
Speaking from personal experience, we recently installed a Reese straight line system with 600lb bars to our Tundra / 19' Bambi setup and the difference it made to overall handling, control and ride was dramatic. Case-in-point, we towed a few hours home the other weekend and while unpacking we noticed that we had left our 2 stainless steel wine glasses out on the table from the previous night. They were still standing upright.
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RV manufactures, sell more trailers when owners crash their old ones, regardless of the reasons.
That's the best reason I have found in 40 plus years, as to why they "ALL" don't want to get involved.
Many owners have converted as you have, with the same positive results, but they don't let anyone else know about it.
How should we say it???
TIME FOR CHANGE, in positive ways without asking for a bail out.
Andy
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06-02-2009, 05:00 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,190
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It doesn't make sense though.
"RV manufactures, sell more trailers when owners crash their old ones, regardless of the reasons."
If I crashed a trailer, I would either be too dead, too broke, or too scared to buy another trailer.
Even if the RV manufacturers were trying to isolate themselves from liability, it doesn't make sense. The more crashes, the more chance of a law suit.
Airstream should put a calculater on their website.
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06-02-2009, 05:03 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
Vintage Kin Owner
1977 31' Excella 500
Berkeley Springs
, West Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,637
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yeah man!
Andy,
Mega Kudos to you, even if you slammed my beloved Equal-I-Zer
I agree with you totally that there are a lot of guys on here who are quick to slam those who try. Yet what have they done? Re that "other" thread that has degenerated terribly in the past week or so....
Wasn't it Teddy Roosevelt who said something to the effect of "Do not shun the one who tries and fails. That he tried is what is important. It is all too easy for the critic to make light of the fallen one; yet the fallen one is the one who tried. It is he who is the accomplished one."
Wee on those that mouth off without contributing.
I used to use a Reese Dual Cam. It towed well but was noisy and I hated the chains. I now use an Equal-I-Zer 1400lb model with the mid range load bars. But, I tow a 34' Avion and it has a MUCH heavier frame than an Airstream. It rides very well behind my Dodge 2500. Yes, I realize that it is a friction control hitch, and it does indeed offer the same small level of turn resistance when I want to turn versus when I don't want to (aka sway). But it works well for me. Truth be known, the triple axle trailer has a natural tendancy to not sway anyway. It is the load distribution properties that I think made the major difference in handling.
From my P.E. in mechancal engineering nerd perspective, the Hensley still reigns supreme. The physics of it just work. Someday I'll machine one out of aluminum and have a light weight one that naturally resists sway. But for now, It's just me and the Eq.
On the Safe-T-Tow, just reach down and slide the lever over manually. Got to keep your wits about you at all times
But anyway, I for one take my hat off to you for trying. Keep up the good work!
__________________
- Jim
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06-02-2009, 05:28 PM
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#12
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3 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB International
East valley
, Arizona
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 145
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Thanks, Andy. Read it, printed it, and will share it with my other RV friends! Appreciate all the info you share on this forum. It has helped more than you know - esp. for a newbie like me. Very grateful.
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06-02-2009, 05:29 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandolindave
"
Even if the RV manufacturers were trying to isolate themselves from liability, it doesn't make sense. The more crashes, the more chance of a law suit.
Airstream should put a calculater on their website.
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I know is doesn't make sense, but the fact remains, "thats the way it is," like it or not, for all of us.
So, what can be done?
Far less negative griping about it and finding fault with anyone that tries.
Far more positive thinking or actions, to resolve the issue, within reason, the best we can.
I for one, have tried and will continue to try.
Andy
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06-02-2009, 05:32 PM
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#14
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Rivet Master
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno
, Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
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Good to see this posted - thanks.
I wonder about the absolute "must have' coupled with the "nobody has real knowledge" and "not a single hitch manufacturer, can spec out “what is a safe” and secure load equalizing hitch setup, and why." - If you don't know why and nobody can measure its function and there is no way to measure its effect, how can you make absolute requirements for its necessity?
It also seems to be a diatribe about anyone who would have the audacity to question its recommendations or assertions as well as a bashing without substance of certain brands where the experience of the public does not agree with the assertions made.
Then there is the 'study' with the conflation of sway with load leveling, a description of a very biased sample, no controls, the problems inherent in using surveys as valid measures, no peer review, no data, many conjectures and assertions ("based on experience and physics with no definition of what these might be, their substance, or their measure).
What is comes down to is a repetition of assertions made in these forums with no substance, no rationale, no means to measure its effect, no balancing of factors, no way to determine relative risks compared to other facets involved in rigging or equipment choice,
This is sad because it is not difficult to measure the effect of a load leveling hitch and it is not difficult to measure the vibrations and bouncing in the trailer. Actually determining the correlation between these things and undesired incidents is another matter and should not be done in haphazard, slapdash hucksteristic manner, IMHO.
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06-02-2009, 05:42 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
2005 30' Classic
Burlington
, Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,743
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I was interested to read your comments about bar sizes for different vehicles.
I tow my recently acquired 2005 30' AS with a Sierra 2500HD, and before buying both truck and trailer I had read comments about the possibiity of the truck's suspension punishing the AS.
I had decided to buy a Hensley hitch, and becasue of what I had read, I thought at the time that I should perhaps get lighter bars.
But when i discussed the matter with Hensley they seemed quite definite that 1000# bars were what I needed - so that is what I now have.
So now I am wondering all over again! Maybe I should just go ahead and order a set of lighter bars.
On the other hand, I must say that my 3/4 ton GMC doesn not seem to give me a whole lot rougher ride than the 1/2 ton that I owned before buying the AS.
Maybe Ford and or Dodge give a rougher ride? I don't know.
Thanks for posting the article.
Brian.
__________________
Brian & Connie Mitchell
2005 Classic 30'
Hensley Arrow / Centramatics
2008 GMC Sierra SLT 2500HD,4x4,Crew Cab, Diesel, Leer cap.
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06-02-2009, 05:52 PM
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#16
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanl
Good to see this posted - thanks.
I wonder about the absolute "must have' coupled with the "nobody has real knowledge" and "not a single hitch manufacturer, can spec out “what is a safe” and secure load equalizing hitch setup, and why." - If you don't know why and nobody can measure its function and there is no way to measure its effect, how can you make absolute requirements for its necessity?
It also seems to be a diatribe about anyone who would have the audacity to question its recommendations or assertions as well as a bashing without substance of certain brands where the experience of the public does not agree with the assertions made.
Then there is the 'study' with the conflation of sway with load leveling, a description of a very biased sample, no controls, the problems inherent in using surveys as valid measures, no peer review, no data, many conjectures and assertions ("based on experience and physics with no definition of what these might be, their substance, or their measure).
What is comes down to is a repetition of assertions made in these forums with no substance, no rationale, no means to measure its effect, no balancing of factors, no way to determine relative risks compared to other facets involved in rigging or equipment choice,
This is sad because it is not difficult to measure the effect of a load leveling hitch and it is not difficult to measure the vibrations and bouncing in the trailer. Actually determining the correlation between these things and undesired incidents is another matter and should not be done in haphazard, slapdash hucksteristic manner, IMHO.
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Then go do it yourself, and quit slamming people that have done "SOMETHING" that obviously doesn't meet with you approvals.
You seem to be the only one that find faults, such as you do.
Read the other posts and see how many people say positive things.
I assure you, that if this thread gets closed, there will be a bunch of owners that will let you know about it.
Do something constructive, if you know how, instead of distructive that you seem to enjoy.
Andy
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06-02-2009, 07:14 PM
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#17
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Community Organizer
2005 22' Safari
South Chicago
, Illinois
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanl
Good to see this posted - thanks.
I wonder about the absolute "must have' coupled with the "nobody has real knowledge" and "not a single hitch manufacturer, can spec out “what is a safe” and secure load equalizing hitch setup, and why." - If you don't know why and nobody can measure its function and there is no way to measure its effect, how can you make absolute requirements for its necessity?
It also seems to be a diatribe about anyone who would have the audacity to question its recommendations or assertions as well as a bashing without substance of certain brands where the experience of the public does not agree with the assertions made.
Then there is the 'study' with the conflation of sway with load leveling, a description of a very biased sample, no controls, the problems inherent in using surveys as valid measures, no peer review, no data, many conjectures and assertions ("based on experience and physics with no definition of what these might be, their substance, or their measure).
What is comes down to is a repetition of assertions made in these forums with no substance, no rationale, no means to measure its effect, no balancing of factors, no way to determine relative risks compared to other facets involved in rigging or equipment choice,
This is sad because it is not difficult to measure the effect of a load leveling hitch and it is not difficult to measure the vibrations and bouncing in the trailer. Actually determining the correlation between these things and undesired incidents is another matter and should not be done in haphazard, slapdash hucksteristic manner, IMHO.
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Let's see the results of your scientific tests. If you have undisputed facts going against Andy, please, let us know, with verifiable bibliography.
Crap, or get off the pot.
__________________
Fr. Guido
"We have just religion enough to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." Jonathan Swift
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06-02-2009, 07:38 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
1963 22' Safari
2020 27' Globetrotter
State of
, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,512
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Thanks Andy for the article, we've had our Reese dual cam for two years now and have really been pleased with it.
__________________
Scott & Megan
VAC LIBRARIAN WBCCI 8671
1963 Safari from the 1963-64 Around the World Caravan
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06-02-2009, 07:58 PM
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#19
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Moderator Emeritus
1964 26' Overlander
1978 Argosy Minuet 6.0 Metre
Anna
, Illinois
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,705
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Towing myths
Greetings Andy!
Kudos for a wonderful article -- all of the background and facts in one place -- what a wonderfulr resource for those new to towing.
I will never foget my introduction to the need to match the load equalizing bars to both the trailer and to vehicle in 1998 at the WBCCI International Rally in Boise, ID. The "specialist" hitch shop had sold me a Reese hitch with 1,000 pound bars for my K2500 Suburban -- when I asked around at the Rally I was connected with a long-time Reese representative who looked at my setup and got me switched to 600 pound bars -- what a difference -- towing to the Rally I never quite felt at ease as it just didn't feel like the coach was tracking consistently -- with the change of bars and a few of the suggested changes from the Reese representative my trip home was extremely smooth.
I don't know how many times I have been challenged when citing the required need to adjust the friction style sway bars when the weather or road conditions change. I know that it was in my manual for the friction sway control on my 1980 Nomad -- and was still in the manual that came with the friction sway control originally on my Minuet. I am definitely a proponent of the Reese Straight-Line hitch -- to me, it is the best value in the available hitches with built-in sway control.
Kevin
__________________
Kevin D. Allen
WBCCI (Lifetime Member)/VAC #7864
AIR #827
1964 Overlander International
1978 Argosy Minuet 6.0 Metre
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06-02-2009, 08:11 PM
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#20
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Site Team
1974 31' Sovereign
Ottawa
, ON
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,219
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brianl,
It appears that you have told the emperor that he has no clothes. Naughty boy, the emperor is well-liked here, ergo, you get some brutal flack.
Of course, nobody likes criticism, but if you were wrong, I'd be on your case, too.
However, it appears that you will have to do the scientific study yourself before you earn the right to criticize someone who claims to have done one, though it is thoroughly and obviously flawed, as you point out quite clearly.
So strong is the emperor, and so great is your sin that even a priest belittles you. How sad.
Sad, because the information offered was purported to save lives and property, and should therefore be open to discussion and criticism without reprisal.
__________________
“Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway.” ...John Wayne...........................
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