Now we need some test maneuvers. We need a realistic amount so as to keep this from getting unruly. I would say something like a 30mph and 60mph slalom. I would also do panic stops from 80mph. What else could we test? Some type of perturbation; like a side gust of wind. Not quite sure how to create that, but let's say a huge side load plus a bump thrown in. With aircraft we do a perturbation test to disturb the plane's path and then see how many oscillations it takes to return to steady state. Something like that would be good.
Ford recently did this to test their version of anti-sway. Without getting into that debate, I only bring it up because they found a reliable way to induce sway conditions:
They had a semi pass the tow vehicle/trailer combo, and had the driver of the tow vehicle remove his foot from the accelerator at that point.
Ford recently did this to test their version of anti-sway. Without getting into that debate, I only bring it up because they found a reliable way to induce sway conditions:
They had a semi pass the tow vehicle/trailer combo, and had the driver of the tow vehicle remove his foot from the accelerator at that point.
Hmm that alone is good information.
__________________ "If a man does not have an ideal and try to live up to it, then he becomes a mean, base and sordid creature, no matter how successful." Letter to his son Kermit, quoted in Theodore Roosevelt by Joseph Bucklin Bishop, 1915
. . .That being said, other than the SAE study that was done in the 1960's, the only other stuff I'm aware of is mainly tabulated data like what Andy has done. And that's good info. But I think a test like the above would really help.
Anyway, it's a starting point.
Jim, there was a much more recent paper just a year ago that builds significantly on the Bundorf paper. It uses some matrices and eigenvalue calculations that were frankly impossible to do back in the 60's.
The paper is interesting in that they used a utility trailer with a movable CG, as you suggest, to verify the ground truth of their calculated results.
Its SAE Paper 2008-01-1228. Although they didn't apply the "antisway" elements of the Bundorf equations (they were testing asymetric braking), you could easily put those equations back in using the same notation that Bundorf used back in 1967.
at the risk of offering irrelevant views... my bonafides - programmer, government researcher, morbidity (health care) insurance actuarial analyst, SCCA racing driver.
Andy offers descriptive evidence and his conclusions. The data and his conclusions while not scientific are valuable (and brave) as a reference. None the less, they are opinions based on his experience and background. Well done.
i would be really interested in an analysis that expressed untoward consequences as a function of the number of systems in use. That is how we completed actuarial analysis of health claims. For example: Of the folks who don't use any weight distribution at all, what is the rate of accident per mile. Similarly, what are the accident rates relative to trailer length, TV capacity and WD equipment in use. Probably not a realistic goal. With large enough samples, the effects of bad driving and incorrect configuration of the systems would wash out.
Because of the variability in the TV systems, trailer loading, tire pressures and suspension setups, each combination of trailer and TV become a unique challenge. No set of rules can adequately describe how to get the optimal setup with the dynamics inherent in the configurations. Test drives and fiddling with tire pressure, weight compensation and trailer loading can help.
Finally, am i the only one in the AS universe that tows without any WD equipment. After hauling horses and using a lot of utility trailers, the Argosy is a dream. Dual axles makes a huge difference. Even though I use a 3/4 ton Ram, the trailer has shown no evidence of getting beat up after 10,000 miles of western roads. Even some unintentional off roading - ask Richard about the "back way" to Meteor Crater ;-) Oh well different strokes for different folks.
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Last edited by flitzwhopper; 06-03-2009 at 10:45 PM.
I'm all for information, but I'm a little skeptical when someone suggests RV dealers want you to crash so you buy more RV's... There would be good money, and good margins and labour, in providing proper setups for towing. Why would a dealer want to ignore this market? It's just like the 'undercoat and paint sealant' at the car dealership... what's another $1000 when you've just spent $30K?
Anyway, for all the 'knowledge' out there, no one can even tell me what, if any, WD setup might work on my Basecamp. So, I'm ordering the Reese single bar and I'll let you all know if it works. My Tacoma does well with it, but I find the tongue weight to be excessive (450lbs or so) given it's light weight (2000lbs).
I am in the middle of a long, long list of things that need to be fixed on it, and we've only used it 2 days. Now, we're going to be driving 2500km to a dealer than can fix it... maybe...
Anyway, for all the 'knowledge' out there, no one can even tell me what, if any, WD setup might work on my Basecamp. So, I'm ordering the Reese single bar and I'll let you all know if it works. My Tacoma does well with it, but I find the tongue weight to be excessive (450lbs or so) given it's light weight (2000lbs).
First Airstream... last Airstream...
It's not merely an issue of what setup might work with your Basecamp, but what will work with your Basecamp and Tacoma together.
I had a Burro 17 with a similar tongue weight and a little higher total weight that I towed with a '94 original Toyota Compact truck. It was an extended cab, 3.0L V6 auto 4WD with a 3500 lb tow capacity. I don't know which Tacoma you have; Gen I or Gen II, but either should be fine with your Basecamp.
Based on MY towing and hitch experience I'd recommend a Reese Dual Cam with 600 lb bars. The Reese literature says the bars are good for "UP TO" a 600 lb tongue weight. I used that setup successfully for two years and a lot of miles, even on the very light weight 3" box frame of the Burro. When properly set up it made the combination run down the road like it was on rails where the tongue weight made the Toyota wallow without it. The only thing you need to be aware of is finding brackets to fit the Basecamp frame properly. I presume that it will be a lighter frame than the usual 5" box found on the regular trailers.
The Reese single bar setup should work equally well for the weight distribution issue, but will do nothing as an anti-sway device. BTW, I didn't need an anti-sway device for the Toyota-Burro combo to "correct" a problem, as it never exhibited any questionable behavior at speeds I was willing to drive; I did it solely for the weight distribution and then the further safety margin the dual-cam offered.
Roger
__________________ AIR 2053 “A generation which ignores history has no past and no future.” Robert Heinlein 1994 Airstream B190 & 2006 Bigfoot 25B25RQ
Thanks Andy for the posted document. There are several references to punishing the trailer. Would a product like the Air Safe do much to mitigate that between a 3/4 ton TV and a trailer with 800 lb hitch weight?
Thanks Andy for the posted document. There are several references to punishing the trailer. Would a product like the Air Safe do much to mitigate that between a 3/4 ton TV and a trailer with 800 lb hitch weight?
Your welcome.
I do not have any working information about that product, therefore I cannot answer your question.
And I seem to always forget to indicate that -- however strongly I feel about towing -- "best practices" means that no hitch rigging is permanent in my mind. And I am willing to try various sets (I wish 2Air had reported more of this observations -- numbers vs conditions -- with his truck & trailer)
Again, when the 34' acted up . . it was the truck suspension causing the problems . . doing anything other than holding the steering straight caused lots of problems.
The TV is often the problem, IMO. High COG in a TV is a real problem not well-addressed. Wheelbase is cited more often, and I DOUBT that it is more important past 120" wb.
As to trailer type I do not agree that a flatbed trailer is a viable candidate unless the COG can be determined more accurately. Travel trailers tend to have a highly-placed COG versus a utility trailer, and trailer COG (heighth) is key to understanding recovery from sway (as I see it) when we discuss this. Low COG trailers are going to have more time to recover. We do, do we not, travel with full fresh water tanks to offset that roof air-conditioner, etc.
I watch trailers of all sorts on the roads here in South Texas, every kind you can imagine and more (oilfield companies have some highly interesting, expensive rigs), and watching incipient sway is a favorite pastime when driving. I.S. meaning the wind is tipping that booger to one side (we have days, weeks of constant 25 mph winds off the coast, with gusts to 40) and suspension travel is greatly reduced. You should see the clueless -- ambling along at 70 mph with that SOB canted over -- they can't feel a thing through the trucks steering (and I won't say they are always from Manitoba).
What do TT's have, 4" suspension travel, on average? A/S has more?
There can be a real apples-and-oranges problems without sorting for trailer design.
Same for trucks. My 3/4T Dodge diesel has independent front suspension and power-assisted rack & pinion steering. The 4WD version has a straight axle with a worm-gear box. There is -- can be -- a big difference in control for two otherwise similar trucks when precise feel counts.
Etc.
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Anybody see anything out of whack with this set up. I just bought and pulled home like this. Seemed to pull great with no issues. Only went about 40 miles. The PO had a Suburban about the same hight as my C-1500 so we set it up that way. I have no experience with a Hensley.
Thanks,
Joe
Anybody see anything out of whack with this set up. I just bought and pulled home like this. Seemed to pull great with no issues. Only went about 40 miles. The PO had a Suburban about the same hight as my C-1500 so we set it up that way. I have no experience with a Hensley.
Joe,
I tow a 30' Airstream Classic with a Hensley....your set-up looks good to me! However, you might consider going through the Hensley manual, if you received one from the PO; if you didn't, give Hensley a call and get one. The Hensley hitch require regular lubrication, and I imagine the PO may have let things go for awhile.
Another thing....crawl under your truck and check out the receiver....we have a GMC Yukon XL, and we upgraded ours to something larger with a few more attachment points.
I love my Hensley....towing a large trailer is much more relaxing with it!
I was thinking of your setup on the way home through Petaluma tonight. There was a family with a lincoln just like yours. They were pulling a Jayco travel trailer which was probably 30 feet long. They were using only the ball hitch with no weight distribution or sway control. The lincoln was really straining and doing its best to stay level (i wish i had a picture) The front of the trailer was pitched down as the rear of the truck was aswell. Im sure it had the air suspension on as it surely would do damage to it had it not been. My observation was that there was no way for the suspension to keep up with the extreme tongue weight of this trailer. The whole thing looked crazy. Your setup looks perfect and he could learn alot if he just glanced over to yours and asked himself what the heck is wrong with his?!
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