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Old 06-03-2009, 05:20 PM   #61
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I can totally see how road shock can transfer through the hitch to the trailer. The stronger the bar, the more force returning or attempting to return to the relaxed position. Any change in trailer/tow vehicle angle due to suspension and the like, would have much more force after the change in angle, and compounded further with stiff tow vehicle suspension. I have a WWII jeep, and that suspension can chip teeth on and off the road, watching how it handles a small utility trailer, very well shows how too much spring in the tow vehicle (and overall wheel base too) can negatively impact the trailer. Regardless of the brand, IMHO it makes complete sense to use the minimum force (minimum bar strength) to keep things balanced. If you disagree its cool with me, you won't hurt my feelings, but the balanced set up we have we're very happy with.
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Old 06-03-2009, 05:30 PM   #62
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Off topic...
But i have to see a pick of the jeep!

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Old 06-03-2009, 06:01 PM   #63
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Objective Test Criteria

OK, here's my first pass at some test criteria.

First the background: I have an old SAE paper that actually goes into quite painful detail about trailer sway. And to Rich Luhr's point about aircraft, they are actually very similar. What causes sway is primarily the trailer being loaded tail heavy. That makes it naturally unstable and it will want to sway. And airplane does the exact same thing. As long as you have enough elevator to keep the nose up during landing, you can go forward CG about all you want. But if you get too aft with the CG (center of gravity), it becomes unstable.

OK, so I would suggest using a tandem axle trailer of about 30' in length. I don't believe it much matters if it's a travel trailer or a utility trailer. A utility trailer would be easier for the testing, because we are going to have to be able to move heavy weights around on the trailer to change it's CG from nose heavy to neutral to tail heavy. You could do it with an Airstream as well, but it would be much easier with a flat bed trailer. Standardize on a 10,000lb loaded weight of the trailer.

Next, we need to decide on a realistic number of different tow vehicles. I would think three would do it. First a 4-door long bed diesel pickup, next a short wheel base SUV (say a Grand Cherokee or Sequoia), and lastly a car; something like a Chrysler 300.

Now we need some test maneuvers. We need a realistic amount so as to keep this from getting unruly. I would say something like a 30mph and 60mph slalom. I would also do panic stops from 80mph. What else could we test? Some type of perturbation; like a side gust of wind. Not quite sure how to create that, but let's say a huge side load plus a bump thrown in. With aircraft we do a perturbation test to disturb the plane's path and then see how many oscillations it takes to return to steady state. Something like that would be good.

So we've got three vehicles, four maneuvers, and we vary the CG and measure the results. We put accelerometers on the trailer and see what happens.

For this we would then want to get an example of the most popular half dozen hitches or so; more if we could get them. I'd say a Hensley, a Pro-Pride, a Reese Dual Cam, an Equal-I-Zer, a Blue Ox, maybe a Pull-Rite, and any others.

What I would envision creating would be a large spreadsheet/database of information that would show at what point each combo was stable, neutral, unstable, really unstable, etc. We'd generate a mountain of data that could be really useful.

Something like this would provide some pretty good feedback.

That being said, other than the SAE study that was done in the 1960's, the only other stuff I'm aware of is mainly tabulated data like what Andy has done. And that's good info. But I think a test like the above would really help.

Anyway, it's a starting point.
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Old 06-03-2009, 06:08 PM   #64
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Now we need some test maneuvers. We need a realistic amount so as to keep this from getting unruly. I would say something like a 30mph and 60mph slalom. I would also do panic stops from 80mph. What else could we test? Some type of perturbation; like a side gust of wind. Not quite sure how to create that, but let's say a huge side load plus a bump thrown in. With aircraft we do a perturbation test to disturb the plane's path and then see how many oscillations it takes to return to steady state. Something like that would be good.
Ford recently did this to test their version of anti-sway. Without getting into that debate, I only bring it up because they found a reliable way to induce sway conditions:
They had a semi pass the tow vehicle/trailer combo, and had the driver of the tow vehicle remove his foot from the accelerator at that point.
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Old 06-03-2009, 06:40 PM   #65
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. . .That being said, other than the SAE study that was done in the 1960's, the only other stuff I'm aware of is mainly tabulated data like what Andy has done. And that's good info. But I think a test like the above would really help.

Anyway, it's a starting point.
Jim, there was a much more recent paper just a year ago that builds significantly on the Bundorf paper. It uses some matrices and eigenvalue calculations that were frankly impossible to do back in the 60's.

The paper is interesting in that they used a utility trailer with a movable CG, as you suggest, to verify the ground truth of their calculated results.

Its SAE Paper 2008-01-1228. Although they didn't apply the "antisway" elements of the Bundorf equations (they were testing asymetric braking), you could easily put those equations back in using the same notation that Bundorf used back in 1967.
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:14 PM   #66
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good info, thanks
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:43 PM   #67
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If it feels good....

at the risk of offering irrelevant views... my bonafides - programmer, government researcher, morbidity (health care) insurance actuarial analyst, SCCA racing driver.

Andy offers descriptive evidence and his conclusions. The data and his conclusions while not scientific are valuable (and brave) as a reference. None the less, they are opinions based on his experience and background. Well done.

i would be really interested in an analysis that expressed untoward consequences as a function of the number of systems in use. That is how we completed actuarial analysis of health claims. For example: Of the folks who don't use any weight distribution at all, what is the rate of accident per mile. Similarly, what are the accident rates relative to trailer length, TV capacity and WD equipment in use. Probably not a realistic goal. With large enough samples, the effects of bad driving and incorrect configuration of the systems would wash out.

Because of the variability in the TV systems, trailer loading, tire pressures and suspension setups, each combination of trailer and TV become a unique challenge. No set of rules can adequately describe how to get the optimal setup with the dynamics inherent in the configurations. Test drives and fiddling with tire pressure, weight compensation and trailer loading can help.

Finally, am i the only one in the AS universe that tows without any WD equipment. After hauling horses and using a lot of utility trailers, the Argosy is a dream. Dual axles makes a huge difference. Even though I use a 3/4 ton Ram, the trailer has shown no evidence of getting beat up after 10,000 miles of western roads. Even some unintentional off roading - ask Richard about the "back way" to Meteor Crater ;-) Oh well different strokes for different folks.
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Old 06-04-2009, 12:50 AM   #68
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I'm all for information, but I'm a little skeptical when someone suggests RV dealers want you to crash so you buy more RV's... There would be good money, and good margins and labour, in providing proper setups for towing. Why would a dealer want to ignore this market? It's just like the 'undercoat and paint sealant' at the car dealership... what's another $1000 when you've just spent $30K?

Anyway, for all the 'knowledge' out there, no one can even tell me what, if any, WD setup might work on my Basecamp. So, I'm ordering the Reese single bar and I'll let you all know if it works. My Tacoma does well with it, but I find the tongue weight to be excessive (450lbs or so) given it's light weight (2000lbs).

I am in the middle of a long, long list of things that need to be fixed on it, and we've only used it 2 days. Now, we're going to be driving 2500km to a dealer than can fix it... maybe...

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Old 06-04-2009, 04:56 AM   #69
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Anyway, for all the 'knowledge' out there, no one can even tell me what, if any, WD setup might work on my Basecamp. So, I'm ordering the Reese single bar and I'll let you all know if it works. My Tacoma does well with it, but I find the tongue weight to be excessive (450lbs or so) given it's light weight (2000lbs).

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It's not merely an issue of what setup might work with your Basecamp, but what will work with your Basecamp and Tacoma together.

I had a Burro 17 with a similar tongue weight and a little higher total weight that I towed with a '94 original Toyota Compact truck. It was an extended cab, 3.0L V6 auto 4WD with a 3500 lb tow capacity. I don't know which Tacoma you have; Gen I or Gen II, but either should be fine with your Basecamp.

Based on MY towing and hitch experience I'd recommend a Reese Dual Cam with 600 lb bars. The Reese literature says the bars are good for "UP TO" a 600 lb tongue weight. I used that setup successfully for two years and a lot of miles, even on the very light weight 3" box frame of the Burro. When properly set up it made the combination run down the road like it was on rails where the tongue weight made the Toyota wallow without it. The only thing you need to be aware of is finding brackets to fit the Basecamp frame properly. I presume that it will be a lighter frame than the usual 5" box found on the regular trailers.

The Reese single bar setup should work equally well for the weight distribution issue, but will do nothing as an anti-sway device. BTW, I didn't need an anti-sway device for the Toyota-Burro combo to "correct" a problem, as it never exhibited any questionable behavior at speeds I was willing to drive; I did it solely for the weight distribution and then the further safety margin the dual-cam offered.

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Old 06-04-2009, 05:03 AM   #70
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The hitch on the basecamp is a single tube. It would have to be modified to use anything but the single arm wd setup.

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Old 06-04-2009, 05:38 AM   #71
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The hitch on the basecamp is a single tube. It would have to be modified to use anything but the single arm wd setup.
Thanks Richard! I had forgotten that. I haven't looked at one since they were first introduced.

That single-tube tongue also presents a huge problem. And re-visiting the design of the Reese single-bar WDH, I'm not even sure that's an option for you as that snap-up bracket is designed to fit across the top of an A-frame tongue...

You may not have any WDH options for your Basecamp without some significant modifications.

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Old 06-04-2009, 07:02 AM   #72
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I myself have wondered about utility trailers. I have a 16' flat bed (22' long actually) that I haul tractors and stuff on with no weight distribution and it's fine and doesn't sway at all. But, I think the main reason is that the axles are set further aft on it than on the travel trailer, so that it's naturally tongue heavy. Forward CG = naturally stable.

When I load either of my trailers, I always try to keep the weight forward of center. Doing that, I've never had one get unruly on me.

The rule of 10-15% of the weight of the trailer being tongue weight is really an approximation. What you actually want is the CG of the trailer to be about 15% forward of the center line of the axles. You could do the math and see what your tongue weight should really be easily enough. I will admit that I have not done this yet myself. But I'm sure I'm close just because of the good handling of my rig as I havei t set up.

I did a very long detailed thread on here a couple years ago on how to set up an Equal-I-Zer. Anybody considering the Eq might want to read it. I've been very happy with mine. It doesn't have the "magic" geometry of the Hensley or Pro-pride (they do like sports car A-arms where you have them non parallel and project a roll center....the hitches project that center up ahead of the "pumpkin" so that it handles like a fifth wheel....very good design). But for a friction hitch, I like it very much. As well, I try to balance the trailer properly when I load it so I'm not trying to overcome a terrible handling setup anyway.

I'll check out that newer SAE paper. I wasn't aware of it. Sounds like great minds think alike on their test apparatus

see you all on the road,
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:27 AM   #73
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In my opinion derived from towing travel trailers, boat trailers, and utility trailers since '65, the problem we call sway (really a sort of fishtail oscillation is a more accurate discription in my mind) is almost non existant with trailers that have little to no wind resistance....i.e. utility trailers, and such.

Even my Airstream when there is little to no wind, or not being passed by large truck, exibits NO tendency to sway. I have experienced it mostly with travel trailers, and the bigger and more square, the bigger the tendency. This, all is assuming the trailer is designed properly, hitched properly, and all the tires are inflated properly.

So, the major problem as I see it with sway and travel trailers is wind, and air forces against the trailer and tow vehicle generated by other large vehicles. I have used several different types of WD hitches. I've used two different brands of round bar WD hitches, and two different versions of the Reese trunion bar hitches, both with the sway cams...the older one and now the newer one. I had better success with the older cam design. I had success to a lesser degree with the friction sway control devices.

I have no experience with the pivot point projection hitches (Hensly, ProPride, and the like), so I cannot comment on them. The thing that I dislike about them and keeps me from trying one along with the price, is the weight, and the comment I keep hearing that the trailer will "move around" using them. Just what does that mean, and how severe is it?

The only sure cure for sway that I have found to date is to slow down in windy conditions.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:46 AM   #74
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Steve, all trailers will exhibit sway at speed. The question is at what speed does the onset occur. The design challenges for trailer designers are to make that onset speed significantly higher than drivers will ever take them. The problems occur when because of trailer design, tow vehicle suspension design, tire issues, or loading issues the speed of onset of sway drops to at or below a normal cruising speed. Unfortunately, more factors come in to play than just the engineering design of the trailer; and those factors are further influenced by the design engineering of the tow vehicle, the condition of the components on the tow vehicle including the tires and entire suspension system, the hitch setup, the driver's steering input on the tow vehicle and the tow vehicle's wheelbase.

Obviously a long wheelbase tow vehicle would take longer to be critically affected by the trailer sway and be easier to correct. Rear overhang on the tow vehicle also has a significant role to play in how much leverage the trailer can gain over the tow vehicle's rear axle. An ideal tow vehicle would have a long wheelbase, short rear overhang, and dual wheels for maximum axle road adhesion. The further you get from those ideal tow vehicle specs, the more difficult it is to control a sway episode once one starts. The Hensley and Pro-Pride design hitches effectively fool the trailer's mass into acting directly on the axle plane rather than being able to use the rear overhang to leverage against the axle plane. From that perspective, they're excellent designs.

However, if you correct all of the potential issues in your rig that would cause a low-speed onset of sway, a standard WDH/anti-sway device hitch is perfectly adequate.

Here's a youtube video that's been posted here before that shows the speed of the onset of sway to be fairly low with an unladen utility trailer with a poorly placed axle position.



All of the factors you mentioned can affect the onset of sway at speed if you are approaching and just under it's normal sway onset speed. The key is to identify them, fix them, and then not have to be concerned.

Roger
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:46 AM   #75
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Thanks Andy for the posted document. There are several references to punishing the trailer. Would a product like the Air Safe do much to mitigate that between a 3/4 ton TV and a trailer with 800 lb hitch weight?
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Old 06-04-2009, 09:59 AM   #76
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Thanks Andy for the posted document. There are several references to punishing the trailer. Would a product like the Air Safe do much to mitigate that between a 3/4 ton TV and a trailer with 800 lb hitch weight?
Your welcome.

I do not have any working information about that product, therefore I cannot answer your question.

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Old 06-04-2009, 11:06 AM   #77
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Steve, all trailers will exhibit sway at speed. The question is at what speed does the onset occur. The design challenges for trailer designers are to make that onset speed significantly higher than drivers will ever take them. The problems occur when because of trailer design, tow vehicle suspension design, tire issues, or loading issues the speed of onset of sway drops to at or below a normal cruising speed. Unfortunately, more factors come in to play than just the engineering design of the trailer; and those factors are further influenced by the design engineering of the tow vehicle, the condition of the components on the tow vehicle including the tires and entire suspension system, the hitch setup, the driver's steering input on the tow vehicle and the tow vehicle's wheelbase.

Obviously a long wheelbase tow vehicle would take longer to be critically affected by the trailer sway and be easier to correct. Rear overhang on the tow vehicle also has a significant role to play in how much leverage the trailer can gain over the tow vehicle's rear axle. An ideal tow vehicle would have a long wheelbase, short rear overhang, and dual wheels for maximum axle road adhesion. The further you get from those ideal tow vehicle specs, the more difficult it is to control a sway episode once one starts. The Hensley and Pro-Pride design hitches effectively fool the trailer's mass into acting directly on the axle plane rather than being able to use the rear overhang to leverage against the axle plane. From that perspective, they're excellent designs.

However, if you correct all of the potential issues in your rig that would cause a low-speed onset of sway, a standard WDH/anti-sway device hitch is perfectly adequate.

Here's a youtube video that's been posted here before that shows the speed of the onset of sway to be fairly low with an unladen utility trailer with a poorly placed axle position.



All of the factors you mentioned can affect the onset of sway at speed if you are approaching and just under it's normal sway onset speed. The key is to identify them, fix them, and then not have to be concerned.

Roger

Roger, no doubt a poorly loaded trailer of any type, meaning tail heavy, will sway faster, and after watching the video a few times, it's clear to me the driver accelerated the sway with steering input for the purposes of the video. I've seen that in the most current of Ford's anti-sway advertising also.

If the driver trys to steer away from the sway, the sway is exagerated. To stop the sway, the driver must steer into the sway.
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:25 AM   #78
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Roger, no doubt a poorly loaded trailer of any type, meaning tail heavy, will sway faster, and after watching the video a few times, it's clear to me the driver accelerated the sway with steering input for the purposes of the video. I've seen that in the most current of Ford's anti-sway advertising also.

If the driver trys to steer away from the sway, the sway is exagerated. To stop the sway, the driver must steer into the sway.
Since a sway can be very rapid, how do you determine which way is which?

How can someone, determine in less than one second, which way is into and which way is away from a sway?

If you are refering to a "skid", then that's a different story.

Andy
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:33 AM   #79
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It's very simple, Andy. You steer the same direction the trailer is taking your butt.

Sorry, but that's the best way I can discribe it. Steer the wrong direction, away from it, and I gurantee the oscillation will be increased.
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Old 06-04-2009, 02:05 PM   #80
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Having experienced severe "sway" just once, I really don't want to do it again. "Sway" is not correctable through steering input because of the lack of reaction time; although as shown in the video, it can be induced through steering input.

The best way I can describe what happened in my circumstance was that I was towing a 15' fiberglass camper that weighed about 2500 lbs behind my 7500 lb Ford Excursion at 65 mph on a bare ball. The coupler spoon on the trailer (unbeknown to me) was worn, and on a particularly rough section of divided highway, the trailer decided to jump the ball. Fortunately I had chains connected. The electrical pigtail disconnected almost immediately, and I had no trailer brakes. I hit the controller and was quite surprised to find that there was no response from the trailer. I hadn't yet tumbled to the fact that the trailer was attached to the Excursion only by the safety chains.

I thought I had just a sway incident induced from the rough road, wind, road speed, and an unladen and unfamiliar travel trailer.

The best way I can describe what happened then is in terms of energy waves using wavelength and amplitude terms.

The trailer began to oscillate from side to side, and with the speed remaining constant (wavelength), the amplitude of the sway (side to side) got larger and larger with the constant input of energy from the forward motion. Fortunately because the Behemoth (the Excursion) was so heavy, the 2500 lb trailer was unable to dislodge the rear axle from the pavement.

The trailer at one point was at an angle to the Excursion of something over 45* and hopping from tire to tire at the far end of the swing to each side. It took up the entire left lane and the shoulder on the other side as I held the Excursion straight in the #2 east bound lane on the four-lane divided highway. Fortunately there was no one immediately behind me or next to me when it started.

I let off the gas, and as I slowed, the amplitude began to drop as the wavelength changed and the trailer began to come back in line with the Excursion and quickly settled back down on both tires. As I gently slowed and pulled to the side the trailer tongue, now suspended by merely one safety chain (the other had worn through), the tongue gently slid under the rear of the Excursion with the propane tank resting gently against the bumper.

The entire incident lasted something less than ten seconds although it seemed like an eternity, and I'm sure I hadn't covered more than a mile from start to finish and stop. I remember thinking that the very next hop of the trailer was going to roll it and I vaguely wondered if the trailer had enough "oomph" to roll the Excursion with it. I didn't know that it had actually become disconnected until after I got it stopped and got out to see what was going on.

In my estimation, four things saved me from having a rolled trailer. First, the weight and wheelbase of the Excursion didn't allow it to be moved. Second, I let off the gas immediately as soon as I recognized what was happening, but didn't brake. Third, that I'd properly set up the safety chains, and last that I didn't try to "steer out of it" but held the wheel straight and let the rig slow on its own.

In trying to figure out the "sway" propensity that my '94 tri-axle had behind my Excursion, I went through a lot of components until I figured out that the springs weren't heavy enough to keep the body centered over the rear axle. A set of radius rods and an aftermarket suspension anti-body roll bar as well as a shorter hitch ball-mount draw bar did wonders for that setup. Again, when the 34' acted up, because it was the truck suspension causing the problems to begin with, doing anything other than holding the steering straight caused lots of problems.

Just another lesson learned the hard way.

Roger
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