Towing myths

[rstream]

Andy,,

What hitch system would you stand behind for a 1/2 ton truck?
What would be a reasonable choice for towing a 19' trailer? You know the best all around for the job?
And can a general question like this be answered?

[overlander63]

I think maybe a better topic of discussion would be:
"Why have no hitch or RV manufacturers performed these tests?"

[Minnie's Mate]

brianl is not the only one that sees flaws in an outdated, 39 year old study performed by the author of an "article" that does not indicate for whom it is written and gives no data to back up its claims other than what the author purports to have been performed. There is nothing scientific about his methods, no controls, no parallel studies, no corroboration to back up his results. He talks about physics, but modern quantum physics and scientific methods dictates that one set of results proves nothing nor do they predict anything other than the results of that one occurrence in time.

If Inland Andy truly wants his study to have substance and legitimacy, he should provide additional details and more current validation of his one time finding rather than hiding behind the cop-out of "if you don't like my results go do your own study". That kind of narrow minded response is neither scientific or productive. Otherwise his study remains a one time finding that has no substantiation and only deserves to remain on the shelf where is has been for nearly 40 years.

The sad issue here is that the uninitiated can easily be confused about the pros and cons of the various types and styles of hitch systems on the market and will be unable to make an unbiased decision regarding which system is best for them, whether that system is a straight line, dual cam or other product.

[SteveH]

Andy,

Even though the "Towing Myths" article wreaks of your opinions to me, and not much actual data, I do find one troubling statement.

Towards the end of the article you give an example of what bars to use on an example 800 pound with certain type tow vehicles, and specifically if I can remember the exact words, you say with "a properly equipped 1/2 ton pickup, use 800 pound bars."

In a thread dealing with this specific issue (what weight bars to use), I gave you my specific setup (1/2 ton pickup with factory towing package and 25' Airstream with about 800 pounds tongue weight) you specifically told me to use 600 pound bars. I went and bought 600 pound bars, and although the ride is noticably softer, the sway control does not seem to be improved at all. And I might add, the ride with the 800 pound bars, the ones that Reese spec'ed for the job, did not ride objectionably.

So my question to you is, which bars should I actually be using?

[Tom Nugler]

Thanks. Once again you’ve injected some reason and facts into the echo chamber so often common in enthusiast forums.
I’d like to offer a few comments into the mix. The owner’s manual for my 72 Tradewind has a section titled "Hitching Up". The illustrations show a Reese Dual Cam with Sway Control and the recommended procedure for making the adjustments to the draw head and bars.
Was the Reese WD hitch Airstream’s preferred choice? The Manual for the hitch was included with the literature that came with the trailer and the brackets are still on the tongue. The hitch is long gone.
There is a caution in that section, which reads:

If your car is equipped with adjustable load leveling air shocks, you must load the car first with typical luggage and passengers and bring it back to level. Then attach the trailer and adjust the load leveling bars. Otherwise the air shocks on your car will overload the rear wheels.

This appears to contradict the statement that air shocks should be disabled.
The Ford Expedition I use as my TV is rated at 6900# in it’s current configuration. It uses air bags as its springs. No leafs or coils. When set up as per the owner’s manual I have never experienced any sway in either of the trailers using a Draw-Tite round bar unit. I would have to suggest that a continuously variable, processor controlled air bag with functioning shocks would be the equivalent of a correctly sized metallic spring for a given load.
The only time I have ever had any diminished control was when a tire on the rear of a TV had a sudden loss of pressure at 60 MPH. That was the only time the tail wagged the dog.
The effect was startling but controllable. Would a Dual Cam have helped? I don’t know.

Just rambling as usual,
Tom.

[Sean Woodruff]

Well, I'm a hitch manufacturer...

I know the facts as to why mine is best but stating them here won't change any minds.

I will participate financially in independent testing with every other hitch manufacturer. All they have to do is participate equally. All of them have a lot more money than I do so I'm sure they wouldn't balk at participating in such a valuable study to back all of their claims of being the best (Andy's words, not mine).

We can take every one of them... Reese Strait-Line, Equalizer, Orange, ProPride, and any of the others and all give them to testing engineers to publish a report on the performance of all of them set up on the same exact rig and all used under the same controls.

I can be emailed from my web site or any other manufacturer can contact me here by PM.

Finally, Andy, you should really do more research before writing something like this...

The Hensley hitch is new to the RV industry. By far, it’s the most expensive, bulky and very much heavier than any other load equalizing hitch. Time will tell if it will do damage to the A-frames. Since they are rated at 1000 and 1400 pounds, they certainly will transfer considerable road shock to the trailer. Adjusting a Hensley hitch, appears to be a task that most owners don’t wish to tackle, yet it’s performance depends on it. Do to it’s size, it’s security in a storage yard becomes questionable. Certainly they can be stolen in minutes as a coupler lock can be
removed in seconds.

New to the RV industry? 15 years of solid performance in the old design. Almost 2 years in the new design.

Damage to the A-Frame? None EVER reported.

Road shock to the trailer? No more than any other hitch. The "road shock" doesn't come from the hitch, it comes through the tires.

Adjusting "appears to be a task"? The simplest hitch, along with the ProPride, available to adjust for top performance.

Security? NOT ONE has ever been reported as stolen.

You lost me as a reader with that paragraph. While I'm sure there is some good information, how can I rely on it with any certainty when you clearly don't know anything about what you write in this paragraph?

I applaud you for the attempt to get more information out to the towing community even with its limited scope and obvious lack of some facts. I challenge you to get your contacts (maybe the Reese Strait-Line guys?) with other hitch companies to participate in the testing to put all of the conjecture to rest.

[bryanl]

re "quit slamming people" - all of my comments were about the article and what it said. there was no people slamming as there was in the message with this quote and some others.

re: "Let's see the results of your scientific tests." - that is exactly the point. where is it in the article offered? There was no "science" there and I provided many examples of what was needed even for a general public article.

I am sorry if my post seemed harsh. I tried very hard to keep it to specifics and to the issue at hand rather than to persons and to provide concrete points to address. I also understand the effects of cognitive dissonance and peer grouping behaviors.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Minnie's Mate

If Inland Andy truly wants his study to have substance and legitimacy, he should provide additional details and more current validation of his one time finding rather than hiding behind the cop-out of "if you don't like my results go do your own study".

The data was not one time, but from over 1,000 (one thousand) loss of control accidents, over about a 7 year period of time.

The methods used, was also approved, in writing, by Airstream itself, in 1970.

The answers to the 12 questions, are the facts.

It doesn't matter what anyone does, as there will always be fault finders, instead of looking at the true value of something.

Gosh, how many people still bash Airstream, after 75 years.

There is good, in most everything.

Andy

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff

Well, I'm a hitch manufacturer...

Security? NOT ONE has ever been reported as stolen.

You lost me as a reader with that paragraph. While I'm sure there is some good information, how can I rely on it with any certainty when you clearly don't know anything about what you write in this paragraph?

I applaud you for the attempt to get more information out to the towing community even with its limited scope and obvious lack of some facts. I challenge you to get your contacts (maybe the Reese Strait-Line guys?) with other hitch companies to participate in the testing to put all of the conjecture to rest.

Come to California and see what is stolen.

Even highway guard rails, and municipal underground wiring is hot stuff to the thieves.

There will "always" be the conjecture. That's what sells newspapers and magazines too.

Others have shared opinions, as I have, along with tons of experience. I know of no formula for experience, or mathematical equations.

Nothing satisfies everyone, not even money, let alone hitches.

Andy

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, what does the theft of a Hensley Arrow, in storage, have to do with loss of control? I would like to see an up to date test of hitches as Sean suggests.

[Mexray]

"Road shock to the trailer? No more than any other hitch. The "road shock" doesn't come from the hitch, it comes through the tires."

Thanks, Sean,

I've long held this same view - the WD hitch is merely a mechanical connection between the TV and the Trailer - any 'road' shock, by definition, would have to come from the road - through the tires and suspension of the TV and trailer!

If there were to be excessive road shock coming from the TV, the WD hitch would of course transfer some of that movement to the trailer - not be the 'cause' of the shock!

[Stefrobrts]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

The data was not one time, but from over 1,000 (one thousand) loss of control accidents, over about a 7 year period of time.

Wow, that's about 12 accidents a month, or roughly 4 every week! That's a lot of accidents. I don't know how big the entire insured group was, but that seems like a LOT of accidents.

I agree that eliminating what may be one of the best hitches because it may get stolen or may cause wear and tear seems based more on personal opinion than fact. I can't afford one, but their design seems sound and makes sense. If we're talking strictly about what makes the safest ride, I don't see why they wouldn't be recommended.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

Wow, that's about 12 accidents a month, or roughly 4 every week! That's a lot of accidents. I don't know how big the entire insured group was, but that seems like a LOT of accidents.

I agree that eliminating what may be one of the best hitches because it may get stolen or may cause wear and tear seems based more on personal opinion than fact. I can't afford one, but their design seems sound and makes sense. If we're talking strictly about what makes the safest ride, I don't see why they wouldn't be recommended.

Steph.

In the late 60's and early 70's, Airstreaming was a way of "big" life.

Your right, all to many loss of control accidents did happen.

The old insurance division of Airstream, called Caravanner Insurance, had probably the vast majority of the trailers insured, because of it's very low rate, and it's excellent service to it's insureds.

Why Airstream let it die, is anyones guess.

Andy

[woppa 4]

As I stated earlier. I have the Easy lift round bar 1000# system. The company's tech data recommends 1000# SB's for my 30 2009 C L: TW 690,40#GB,s TV 2500 HD Tur 6.7, we carry est 400-500#'s in the bed(mega cab) Q? assuming my system is adequate. How many links in the
SB chains should I attempt to lock. 3rd or 4th. The unit is level regardless of links. However I need bottle jack assistance at the 4th link level.(also have sway friction assist) Should I only use the Tr jack to assist in attaching the B's woppa4 PS. maybe two links would be suffice.

[SteveH]

One more time Andy....previously in a hitch thread you advised me to use 600 pound Reese bars with my 800 pound hitch weight trailer towed with my tow package equipped 1/2 ton truck, and now in your "Hitch Myths" article, you say a properly equipped 1/2 ton truck towing a trailer with an 800 pound tongue weight should use 750 to 800 pound bars.

I have bought a new set of 600 pound bars and sold the 800 pound bars based on your say-so in the previous thread. Should I now sell the 600 pound bars and buy new 800 pound bars based on your statements in your "Hitch Myths" article?

I am concerned about what appears to be excessive bend in the bars when I put enough pressure on the bars to level the trailer and put at least some additional weight on the front axle of the tow vehicle. How many accidents does your data show were caused by bars breaking?

Just want to get it "right", but it seems your recommendations keep changing?

[JimGolden]

Sean,

That is a really nice looking hitch you make. I remember reading about it some time ago. What could be better than an arrow...it's replacement.

Maybe some day, but too expensive for me right now.


take care,

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by SteveH

One more time Andy....previously in a hitch thread you advised me to use 600 pound Reese bars with my 800 pound hitch weight trailer towed with my tow package equipped 1/2 ton truck, and now in your "Hitch Myths" article, you say a properly equipped 1/2 ton truck towing a trailer with an 800 pound tongue weight should use 750 to 800 pound bars.

I have bought a new set of 600 pound bars and sold the 800 pound bars based on your say-so in the previous thread. Should I now sell the 600 pound bars and buy new 800 pound bars based on your statements in your "Hitch Myths" article?

I am concerned about what appears to be excessive bend in the bars when I put enough pressure on the bars to level the trailer and put at least some additional weight on the front axle of the tow vehicle. How many accidents does your data show were caused by bars breaking?

Just want to get it "right", but it seems your recommendations keep changing?

Hitch torsion bars must bend in order to do their intended job.

Reese bars as an example are tested to bend 5 inches without taking a set. Normally, a good operational bend for Reese bars is 2 to 3 inches, when using their cam/saddle sway control.

Your 600 pound bars are fine.

Andy

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Hitch torsion bars must bend in order to do their intended job.

Reese bars as an example are tested to bend 5 inches without taking a set. Normally, a good operational bend for Reese bars is 2 to 3 inches, when using their cam/saddle sway control.

Your 600 pound bars are fine.

Andy

OK, so now it is your recommendation to use 600 pound bars with a "properly equipped 1/2 to pickup" and 800 pound tongue weight? Seems your "recommendations" are sometimes contraditory?

Also about my other question...."How many accidents does your data show were caused by bars breaking?"

With your years of experience, does your data ever show that this happens? And, if so, what was the result? And, if it did happen, to what extent were those bars "overloaded" acording to Reese factory specs?

[Sean Woodruff]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Come to California and see what is stolen.

CA is the second or third largest state for quantity of orange hitches. Over 3000 of them. Not one has been reported as stolen.

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Steph.

In the late 60's and early 70's, Airstreaming was a way of "big" life.

Your right, all to many loss of control accidents did happen.

The old insurance division of Airstream, called Caravanner Insurance, had probably the vast majority of the trailers insured, because of it's very low rate, and it's excellent service to it's insureds.

Why Airstream let it die, is anyones guess.

Andy

Insurance companies can't stay in business paying accident claims at the rate you report. I'm sure that had something to do with Airstream letting it die.

Originally Posted by JimGolden

Sean,

That is a really nice looking hitch you make. I remember reading about it some time ago. What could be better than an arrow...it's replacement.

Maybe some day, but too expensive for me right now.


take care,

Thanks, Jim.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by SteveH

OK, so now it is your recommendation to use 600 pound bars with a "properly equipped 1/2 to pickup" and 800 pound tongue weight? Seems your "recommendations" are sometimes contraditory?

Also about my other question...."How many accidents does your data show were caused by bars breaking?"

With your years of experience, does your data ever show that this happens? And, if so, what was the result? And, if it did happen, to what extent were those bars "overloaded" acording to Reese factory specs?

Bars breakingt? Never.

Chain link breaking from the end of the bar, several.

Andy