Towing myths

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by bryanl

Good to see this posted - thanks.

I wonder about the absolute "must have' coupled with the "nobody has real knowledge" and "not a single hitch manufacturer, can spec out “what is a safe” and secure load equalizing hitch setup, and why." - If you don't know why and nobody can measure its function and there is no way to measure its effect, how can you make absolute requirements for its necessity?

It also seems to be a diatribe about anyone who would have the audacity to question its recommendations or assertions as well as a bashing without substance of certain brands where the experience of the public does not agree with the assertions made.

Then there is the 'study' with the conflation of sway with load leveling, a description of a very biased sample, no controls, the problems inherent in using surveys as valid measures, no peer review, no data, many conjectures and assertions ("based on experience and physics with no definition of what these might be, their substance, or their measure).

What is comes down to is a repetition of assertions made in these forums with no substance, no rationale, no means to measure its effect, no balancing of factors, no way to determine relative risks compared to other facets involved in rigging or equipment choice,

This is sad because it is not difficult to measure the effect of a load leveling hitch and it is not difficult to measure the vibrations and bouncing in the trailer. Actually determining the correlation between these things and undesired incidents is another matter and should not be done in haphazard, slapdash hucksteristic manner, IMHO.

Then go do it yourself, and quit slamming people that have done "SOMETHING" that obviously doesn't meet with you approvals.

You seem to be the only one that find faults, such as you do.

Read the other posts and see how many people say positive things.

I assure you, that if this thread gets closed, there will be a bunch of owners that will let you know about it.

Do something constructive, if you know how, instead of distructive that you seem to enjoy.

Andy

[Guido]

Originally Posted by bryanl

Good to see this posted - thanks.

I wonder about the absolute "must have' coupled with the "nobody has real knowledge" and "not a single hitch manufacturer, can spec out “what is a safe” and secure load equalizing hitch setup, and why." - If you don't know why and nobody can measure its function and there is no way to measure its effect, how can you make absolute requirements for its necessity?

It also seems to be a diatribe about anyone who would have the audacity to question its recommendations or assertions as well as a bashing without substance of certain brands where the experience of the public does not agree with the assertions made.

Then there is the 'study' with the conflation of sway with load leveling, a description of a very biased sample, no controls, the problems inherent in using surveys as valid measures, no peer review, no data, many conjectures and assertions ("based on experience and physics with no definition of what these might be, their substance, or their measure).

What is comes down to is a repetition of assertions made in these forums with no substance, no rationale, no means to measure its effect, no balancing of factors, no way to determine relative risks compared to other facets involved in rigging or equipment choice,

This is sad because it is not difficult to measure the effect of a load leveling hitch and it is not difficult to measure the vibrations and bouncing in the trailer. Actually determining the correlation between these things and undesired incidents is another matter and should not be done in haphazard, slapdash hucksteristic manner, IMHO.

Let's see the results of your scientific tests. If you have undisputed facts going against Andy, please, let us know, with verifiable bibliography.
Crap, or get off the pot.

[Wingeezer]

I was interested to read your comments about bar sizes for different vehicles.

I tow my recently acquired 2005 30' AS with a Sierra 2500HD, and before buying both truck and trailer I had read comments about the possibiity of the truck's suspension punishing the AS.

I had decided to buy a Hensley hitch, and becasue of what I had read, I thought at the time that I should perhaps get lighter bars.

But when i discussed the matter with Hensley they seemed quite definite that 1000# bars were what I needed - so that is what I now have.

So now I am wondering all over again! Maybe I should just go ahead and order a set of lighter bars.

On the other hand, I must say that my 3/4 ton GMC doesn not seem to give me a whole lot rougher ride than the 1/2 ton that I owned before buying the AS.

Maybe Ford and or Dodge give a rougher ride? I don't know.


Thanks for posting the article.

Brian.

[goransons]

Thanks Andy for the article, we've had our Reese dual cam for two years now and have really been pleased with it.

[overlander64]

Greetings Andy!

Kudos for a wonderful article -- all of the background and facts in one place -- what a wonderfulr resource for those new to towing.

I will never foget my introduction to the need to match the load equalizing bars to both the trailer and to vehicle in 1998 at the WBCCI International Rally in Boise, ID. The "specialist" hitch shop had sold me a Reese hitch with 1,000 pound bars for my K2500 Suburban -- when I asked around at the Rally I was connected with a long-time Reese representative who looked at my setup and got me switched to 600 pound bars -- what a difference -- towing to the Rally I never quite felt at ease as it just didn't feel like the coach was tracking consistently -- with the change of bars and a few of the suggested changes from the Reese representative my trip home was extremely smooth.

I don't know how many times I have been challenged when citing the required need to adjust the friction style sway bars when the weather or road conditions change. I know that it was in my manual for the friction sway control on my 1980 Nomad -- and was still in the manual that came with the friction sway control originally on my Minuet. I am definitely a proponent of the Reese Straight-Line hitch -- to me, it is the best value in the available hitches with built-in sway control.

Kevin

[Aage]

brianl,

It appears that you have told the emperor that he has no clothes. Naughty boy, the emperor is well-liked here, ergo, you get some brutal flack.

Of course, nobody likes criticism, but if you were wrong, I'd be on your case, too.

However, it appears that you will have to do the scientific study yourself before you earn the right to criticize someone who claims to have done one, though it is thoroughly and obviously flawed, as you point out quite clearly.

So strong is the emperor, and so great is your sin that even a priest belittles you. How sad.

Sad, because the information offered was purported to save lives and property, and should therefore be open to discussion and criticism without reprisal.

[rstream]

Andy,,

What hitch system would you stand behind for a 1/2 ton truck?
What would be a reasonable choice for towing a 19' trailer? You know the best all around for the job?
And can a general question like this be answered?

[overlander63]

I think maybe a better topic of discussion would be:
"Why have no hitch or RV manufacturers performed these tests?"

[Minnie's Mate]

brianl is not the only one that sees flaws in an outdated, 39 year old study performed by the author of an "article" that does not indicate for whom it is written and gives no data to back up its claims other than what the author purports to have been performed. There is nothing scientific about his methods, no controls, no parallel studies, no corroboration to back up his results. He talks about physics, but modern quantum physics and scientific methods dictates that one set of results proves nothing nor do they predict anything other than the results of that one occurrence in time.

If Inland Andy truly wants his study to have substance and legitimacy, he should provide additional details and more current validation of his one time finding rather than hiding behind the cop-out of "if you don't like my results go do your own study". That kind of narrow minded response is neither scientific or productive. Otherwise his study remains a one time finding that has no substantiation and only deserves to remain on the shelf where is has been for nearly 40 years.

The sad issue here is that the uninitiated can easily be confused about the pros and cons of the various types and styles of hitch systems on the market and will be unable to make an unbiased decision regarding which system is best for them, whether that system is a straight line, dual cam or other product.

[SteveH]

Andy,

Even though the "Towing Myths" article wreaks of your opinions to me, and not much actual data, I do find one troubling statement.

Towards the end of the article you give an example of what bars to use on an example 800 pound with certain type tow vehicles, and specifically if I can remember the exact words, you say with "a properly equipped 1/2 ton pickup, use 800 pound bars."

In a thread dealing with this specific issue (what weight bars to use), I gave you my specific setup (1/2 ton pickup with factory towing package and 25' Airstream with about 800 pounds tongue weight) you specifically told me to use 600 pound bars. I went and bought 600 pound bars, and although the ride is noticably softer, the sway control does not seem to be improved at all. And I might add, the ride with the 800 pound bars, the ones that Reese spec'ed for the job, did not ride objectionably.

So my question to you is, which bars should I actually be using?

[Tom Nugler]

Thanks. Once again you’ve injected some reason and facts into the echo chamber so often common in enthusiast forums.
I’d like to offer a few comments into the mix. The owner’s manual for my 72 Tradewind has a section titled "Hitching Up". The illustrations show a Reese Dual Cam with Sway Control and the recommended procedure for making the adjustments to the draw head and bars.
Was the Reese WD hitch Airstream’s preferred choice? The Manual for the hitch was included with the literature that came with the trailer and the brackets are still on the tongue. The hitch is long gone.
There is a caution in that section, which reads:

If your car is equipped with adjustable load leveling air shocks, you must load the car first with typical luggage and passengers and bring it back to level. Then attach the trailer and adjust the load leveling bars. Otherwise the air shocks on your car will overload the rear wheels.

This appears to contradict the statement that air shocks should be disabled.
The Ford Expedition I use as my TV is rated at 6900# in it’s current configuration. It uses air bags as its springs. No leafs or coils. When set up as per the owner’s manual I have never experienced any sway in either of the trailers using a Draw-Tite round bar unit. I would have to suggest that a continuously variable, processor controlled air bag with functioning shocks would be the equivalent of a correctly sized metallic spring for a given load.
The only time I have ever had any diminished control was when a tire on the rear of a TV had a sudden loss of pressure at 60 MPH. That was the only time the tail wagged the dog.
The effect was startling but controllable. Would a Dual Cam have helped? I don’t know.

Just rambling as usual,
Tom.

[jvhawkins]

Originally Posted by Tom Nugler

Thanks. Once again you’ve injected some reason and facts into the echo chamber so often common in enthusiast forums.
I’d like to offer a few comments into the mix. The owner’s manual for my 72 Tradewind has a section titled "Hitching Up". The illustrations show a Reese Dual Cam with Sway Control and the recommended procedure for making the adjustments to the draw head and bars.
Was the Reese WD hitch Airstream’s preferred choice? The Manual for the hitch was included with the literature that came with the trailer and the brackets are still on the tongue. The hitch is long gone.
There is a caution in that section, which reads:

If your car is equipped with adjustable load leveling air shocks, you must load the car first with typical luggage and passengers and bring it back to level. Then attach the trailer and adjust the load leveling bars. Otherwise the air shocks on your car will overload the rear wheels.

This appears to contradict the statement that air shocks should be disabled.
The Ford Expedition I use as my TV is rated at 6900# in it’s current configuration. It uses air bags as its springs. No leafs or coils. When set up as per the owner’s manual I have never experienced any sway in either of the trailers using a Draw-Tite round bar unit. I would have to suggest that a continuously variable, processor controlled air bag with functioning shocks would be the equivalent of a correctly sized metallic spring for a given load.
The only time I have ever had any diminished control was when a tire on the rear of a TV had a sudden loss of pressure at 60 MPH. That was the only time the tail wagged the dog.
The effect was startling but controllable. Would a Dual Cam have helped? I don’t know.

Just rambling as usual,
Tom.

I am a new user towing a 28 ft Safari with a Lincoln Navigator with automatic air bags but with an on/off switch on the passenger side slightly under the panel and on the right wall in front of the door. I followed the manual as to the set up instruction that you quote but after I set the vehicle level with the load in place, luggage, people, etc. and it leveled out then I turned off the auto air switch. Then lowered the Airstream tongue onto the hitch ball. The load is about 950 pounds max. The Airstream rides level but the rear of the Navigator is down. I have stabilizer etc. It towed 350 miles with no problems but my headlights are affected. Is this the right way or are the Airstream and the tow vehicle both supposed to be level to have proper weight distribution? The front axel of my airstream shows a greater load than the rear axel.
Jim Hawkins in Calfornia

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by jvhawkins

I am a new user towing a 28 ft Safari with a Lincoln Navigator with automatic air bags but with an on/off switch on the passenger side slightly under the panel and on the right wall in front of the door.

The load is about 950 pounds max. The Airstream rides level but the rear of the Navigator is down. I have stabilizer etc.

Is this the right way or are the Airstream and the tow vehicle both supposed to be level to have proper weight distribution?

Jim Hawkins in Calfornia

Jim, not to hijack your question... and I'm sure someone more knowlegeable than I can answer... but a couple of questions...

1) What is your Navigator rated to tow, and what is it's maximum hitch weight?

2) What does the Navigator's owner's manual say about how the auto-leveling suspension is supposed to be used while towing?

3) What brand and style of hitch are you using?

If you can answer those, I'm sure someone will be able to help.

Roger

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by jvhawkins

I am a new user towing a 28 ft Safari with a Lincoln Navigator with automatic air bags but with an on/off switch on the passenger side slightly under the panel and on the right wall in front of the door. I followed the manual as to the set up instruction that you quote but after I set the vehicle level with the load in place, luggage, people, etc. and it leveled out then I turned off the auto air switch. Then lowered the Airstream tongue onto the hitch ball. The load is about 950 pounds max. The Airstream rides level but the rear of the Navigator is down. I have stabilizer etc. It towed 350 miles with no problems but my headlights are affected. Is this the right way or are the Airstream and the tow vehicle both supposed to be level to have proper weight distribution? The front axel of my airstream shows a greater load than the rear axel.
Jim Hawkins in Calfornia

The ball height on your tow vehicle, must be lower in order to make the tow vehicle become level, as well as that will also allow you to transfer some tongue weight to the front axle of your tow vehicle, as it should be.

As your rig presently sits, you have remove front axle weight, which invites loss of control.

Andy