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Old 06-02-2009, 06:42 PM   #15
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I was interested to read your comments about bar sizes for different vehicles.

I tow my recently acquired 2005 30' AS with a Sierra 2500HD, and before buying both truck and trailer I had read comments about the possibiity of the truck's suspension punishing the AS.

I had decided to buy a Hensley hitch, and becasue of what I had read, I thought at the time that I should perhaps get lighter bars.

But when i discussed the matter with Hensley they seemed quite definite that 1000# bars were what I needed - so that is what I now have.

So now I am wondering all over again! Maybe I should just go ahead and order a set of lighter bars.

On the other hand, I must say that my 3/4 ton GMC doesn not seem to give me a whole lot rougher ride than the 1/2 ton that I owned before buying the AS.

Maybe Ford and or Dodge give a rougher ride? I don't know.


Thanks for posting the article.

Brian.
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Old 06-02-2009, 06:52 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by bryanl View Post
Good to see this posted - thanks.

I wonder about the absolute "must have' coupled with the "nobody has real knowledge" and "not a single hitch manufacturer, can spec out “what is a safe” and secure load equalizing hitch setup, and why." - If you don't know why and nobody can measure its function and there is no way to measure its effect, how can you make absolute requirements for its necessity?

It also seems to be a diatribe about anyone who would have the audacity to question its recommendations or assertions as well as a bashing without substance of certain brands where the experience of the public does not agree with the assertions made.

Then there is the 'study' with the conflation of sway with load leveling, a description of a very biased sample, no controls, the problems inherent in using surveys as valid measures, no peer review, no data, many conjectures and assertions ("based on experience and physics with no definition of what these might be, their substance, or their measure).

What is comes down to is a repetition of assertions made in these forums with no substance, no rationale, no means to measure its effect, no balancing of factors, no way to determine relative risks compared to other facets involved in rigging or equipment choice,

This is sad because it is not difficult to measure the effect of a load leveling hitch and it is not difficult to measure the vibrations and bouncing in the trailer. Actually determining the correlation between these things and undesired incidents is another matter and should not be done in haphazard, slapdash hucksteristic manner, IMHO.
Then go do it yourself, and quit slamming people that have done "SOMETHING" that obviously doesn't meet with you approvals.

You seem to be the only one that find faults, such as you do.

Read the other posts and see how many people say positive things.

I assure you, that if this thread gets closed, there will be a bunch of owners that will let you know about it.

Do something constructive, if you know how, instead of distructive that you seem to enjoy.

Andy
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by bryanl View Post
Good to see this posted - thanks.

I wonder about the absolute "must have' coupled with the "nobody has real knowledge" and "not a single hitch manufacturer, can spec out “what is a safe” and secure load equalizing hitch setup, and why." - If you don't know why and nobody can measure its function and there is no way to measure its effect, how can you make absolute requirements for its necessity?

It also seems to be a diatribe about anyone who would have the audacity to question its recommendations or assertions as well as a bashing without substance of certain brands where the experience of the public does not agree with the assertions made.

Then there is the 'study' with the conflation of sway with load leveling, a description of a very biased sample, no controls, the problems inherent in using surveys as valid measures, no peer review, no data, many conjectures and assertions ("based on experience and physics with no definition of what these might be, their substance, or their measure).

What is comes down to is a repetition of assertions made in these forums with no substance, no rationale, no means to measure its effect, no balancing of factors, no way to determine relative risks compared to other facets involved in rigging or equipment choice,

This is sad because it is not difficult to measure the effect of a load leveling hitch and it is not difficult to measure the vibrations and bouncing in the trailer. Actually determining the correlation between these things and undesired incidents is another matter and should not be done in haphazard, slapdash hucksteristic manner, IMHO.
Let's see the results of your scientific tests. If you have undisputed facts going against Andy, please, let us know, with verifiable bibliography.
Crap, or get off the pot.
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:38 PM   #18
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Thanks Andy for the article, we've had our Reese dual cam for two years now and have really been pleased with it.
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:58 PM   #19
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Towing myths

Greetings Andy!

Kudos for a wonderful article -- all of the background and facts in one place -- what a wonderfulr resource for those new to towing.

I will never foget my introduction to the need to match the load equalizing bars to both the trailer and to vehicle in 1998 at the WBCCI International Rally in Boise, ID. The "specialist" hitch shop had sold me a Reese hitch with 1,000 pound bars for my K2500 Suburban -- when I asked around at the Rally I was connected with a long-time Reese representative who looked at my setup and got me switched to 600 pound bars -- what a difference -- towing to the Rally I never quite felt at ease as it just didn't feel like the coach was tracking consistently -- with the change of bars and a few of the suggested changes from the Reese representative my trip home was extremely smooth.

I don't know how many times I have been challenged when citing the required need to adjust the friction style sway bars when the weather or road conditions change. I know that it was in my manual for the friction sway control on my 1980 Nomad -- and was still in the manual that came with the friction sway control originally on my Minuet. I am definitely a proponent of the Reese Straight-Line hitch -- to me, it is the best value in the available hitches with built-in sway control.

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Old 06-02-2009, 09:11 PM   #20
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brianl,

It appears that you have told the emperor that he has no clothes. Naughty boy, the emperor is well-liked here, ergo, you get some brutal flack.

Of course, nobody likes criticism, but if you were wrong, I'd be on your case, too.

However, it appears that you will have to do the scientific study yourself before you earn the right to criticize someone who claims to have done one, though it is thoroughly and obviously flawed, as you point out quite clearly.

So strong is the emperor, and so great is your sin that even a priest belittles you. How sad.

Sad, because the information offered was purported to save lives and property, and should therefore be open to discussion and criticism without reprisal.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:13 PM   #21
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Andy,,

What hitch system would you stand behind for a 1/2 ton truck?
What would be a reasonable choice for towing a 19' trailer? You know the best all around for the job?
And can a general question like this be answered?
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:40 PM   #22
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I think maybe a better topic of discussion would be:
"Why have no hitch or RV manufacturers performed these tests?"
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:42 PM   #23
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brianl is not the only one that sees flaws in an outdated, 39 year old study performed by the author of an "article" that does not indicate for whom it is written and gives no data to back up its claims other than what the author purports to have been performed. There is nothing scientific about his methods, no controls, no parallel studies, no corroboration to back up his results. He talks about physics, but modern quantum physics and scientific methods dictates that one set of results proves nothing nor do they predict anything other than the results of that one occurrence in time.

If Inland Andy truly wants his study to have substance and legitimacy, he should provide additional details and more current validation of his one time finding rather than hiding behind the cop-out of "if you don't like my results go do your own study". That kind of narrow minded response is neither scientific or productive. Otherwise his study remains a one time finding that has no substantiation and only deserves to remain on the shelf where is has been for nearly 40 years.

The sad issue here is that the uninitiated can easily be confused about the pros and cons of the various types and styles of hitch systems on the market and will be unable to make an unbiased decision regarding which system is best for them, whether that system is a straight line, dual cam or other product.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:58 PM   #24
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Andy,

Even though the "Towing Myths" article wreaks of your opinions to me, and not much actual data, I do find one troubling statement.

Towards the end of the article you give an example of what bars to use on an example 800 pound with certain type tow vehicles, and specifically if I can remember the exact words, you say with "a properly equipped 1/2 ton pickup, use 800 pound bars."

In a thread dealing with this specific issue (what weight bars to use), I gave you my specific setup (1/2 ton pickup with factory towing package and 25' Airstream with about 800 pounds tongue weight) you specifically told me to use 600 pound bars. I went and bought 600 pound bars, and although the ride is noticably softer, the sway control does not seem to be improved at all. And I might add, the ride with the 800 pound bars, the ones that Reese spec'ed for the job, did not ride objectionably.

So my question to you is, which bars should I actually be using?
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Old 06-02-2009, 10:11 PM   #25
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Thanks. Once again you’ve injected some reason and facts into the echo chamber so often common in enthusiast forums.
I’d like to offer a few comments into the mix. The owner’s manual for my 72 Tradewind has a section titled "Hitching Up". The illustrations show a Reese Dual Cam with Sway Control and the recommended procedure for making the adjustments to the draw head and bars.
Was the Reese WD hitch Airstream’s preferred choice? The Manual for the hitch was included with the literature that came with the trailer and the brackets are still on the tongue. The hitch is long gone.
There is a caution in that section, which reads:

If your car is equipped with adjustable load leveling air shocks, you must load the car first with typical luggage and passengers and bring it back to level. Then attach the trailer and adjust the load leveling bars. Otherwise the air shocks on your car will overload the rear wheels.

This appears to contradict the statement that air shocks should be disabled.
The Ford Expedition I use as my TV is rated at 6900# in it’s current configuration. It uses air bags as its springs. No leafs or coils. When set up as per the owner’s manual I have never experienced any sway in either of the trailers using a Draw-Tite round bar unit. I would have to suggest that a continuously variable, processor controlled air bag with functioning shocks would be the equivalent of a correctly sized metallic spring for a given load.
The only time I have ever had any diminished control was when a tire on the rear of a TV had a sudden loss of pressure at 60 MPH. That was the only time the tail wagged the dog.
The effect was startling but controllable. Would a Dual Cam have helped? I don’t know.

Just rambling as usual,
Tom.
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Old 06-02-2009, 10:17 PM   #26
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Well, I'm a hitch manufacturer...

I know the facts as to why mine is best but stating them here won't change any minds.

I will participate financially in independent testing with every other hitch manufacturer. All they have to do is participate equally. All of them have a lot more money than I do so I'm sure they wouldn't balk at participating in such a valuable study to back all of their claims of being the best (Andy's words, not mine).

We can take every one of them... Reese Strait-Line, Equalizer, Orange, ProPride, and any of the others and all give them to testing engineers to publish a report on the performance of all of them set up on the same exact rig and all used under the same controls.

I can be emailed from my web site or any other manufacturer can contact me here by PM.

Finally, Andy, you should really do more research before writing something like this...

Quote:
The Hensley hitch is new to the RV industry. By far, it’s the most expensive, bulky and very much heavier than any other load equalizing hitch. Time will tell if it will do damage to the A-frames. Since they are rated at 1000 and 1400 pounds, they certainly will transfer considerable road shock to the trailer. Adjusting a Hensley hitch, appears to be a task that most owners don’t wish to tackle, yet it’s performance depends on it. Do to it’s size, it’s security in a storage yard becomes questionable. Certainly they can be stolen in minutes as a coupler lock can be
removed in seconds.
New to the RV industry? 15 years of solid performance in the old design. Almost 2 years in the new design.

Damage to the A-Frame? None EVER reported.

Road shock to the trailer? No more than any other hitch. The "road shock" doesn't come from the hitch, it comes through the tires.

Adjusting "appears to be a task"? The simplest hitch, along with the ProPride, available to adjust for top performance.

Security? NOT ONE has ever been reported as stolen.

You lost me as a reader with that paragraph. While I'm sure there is some good information, how can I rely on it with any certainty when you clearly don't know anything about what you write in this paragraph?

I applaud you for the attempt to get more information out to the towing community even with its limited scope and obvious lack of some facts. I challenge you to get your contacts (maybe the Reese Strait-Line guys?) with other hitch companies to participate in the testing to put all of the conjecture to rest.
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Old 06-03-2009, 12:18 AM   #27
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re "quit slamming people" - all of my comments were about the article and what it said. there was no people slamming as there was in the message with this quote and some others.

re: "Let's see the results of your scientific tests." - that is exactly the point. where is it in the article offered? There was no "science" there and I provided many examples of what was needed even for a general public article.

I am sorry if my post seemed harsh. I tried very hard to keep it to specifics and to the issue at hand rather than to persons and to provide concrete points to address. I also understand the effects of cognitive dissonance and peer grouping behaviors.
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Old 06-03-2009, 12:40 AM   #28
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If Inland Andy truly wants his study to have substance and legitimacy, he should provide additional details and more current validation of his one time finding rather than hiding behind the cop-out of "if you don't like my results go do your own study".
The data was not one time, but from over 1,000 (one thousand) loss of control accidents, over about a 7 year period of time.

The methods used, was also approved, in writing, by Airstream itself, in 1970.

The answers to the 12 questions, are the facts.

It doesn't matter what anyone does, as there will always be fault finders, instead of looking at the true value of something.

Gosh, how many people still bash Airstream, after 75 years.

There is good, in most everything.

Andy
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