The unofficial pp users guide...

[rmkrum]

Both of my u-bolts have been scraped a bit. I plan to raise the AS with an axle lift kit then re-level everything to get more clearance. We won't talk about the bumper hit that gave me a wrinkle in the right rear corner. Same problem.

Swapping 14" rims for 16" and better tires (Michelin of course) will help a bit as well.


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[cwf]

Originally Posted by DoublTrouble

I'm curious if anyone has experienced scraping on tight, sloped entrance ramps. I am not exactly sure but I think the U bolt on the curbside WD bar may have touched the road surface..... anyone else?
I don't think the sound is from the Tow vehicle.

Yup... On driveway, steep/crowned entrance/exits ours has scraped. Check the bolt to see if it has been scraped... Have someone observe while you go over the spot...

[DoublTrouble]

since I went to the 16's maybe I'm going go up to the top hole again. It's looking a little nose down .

[DoublTrouble]

Oops down a hole...

[BearGhost]

Originally Posted by KYAirstream

Scale weights are important and get weights for no WD and 3 other readings at 1" increments. It's interesting to see how a small change can have a large effect.

Your hitch box and stinger look nice and level. If you need to introduce more weight distribution you might try adding some washers to the stinger and/or lowering the bar down a hole. I had to add three washers to mine awhile back to get it to look level like yours once the WD was engaged.

Thanks for all the input guys. I finally got a chance to get down to the Cat Scales and the readings pretty much confirmed what my tape measure has been telling me.....very little or no weight distribution, even with the new class 5 hitch and 7.5" cranked on the jack. Here's my numbers and a couple pictures. The truck was full of fuel (45 gallons) and the trailer had a full tank of fresh water (100 gallons) and my UTV (1500lbs) loaded up inside, backwards with most of the weight over the axles.

weigh #1 truck only
steer axle - 4840 lbs
drive axle - 3460 lbs
total tow vehicle weight - 8300 lbs

weigh #2 truck with trailer, very little WD applied (5.5"), 30 psi in trucks air bags
steer axle - 4120 lbs
drive axle - 5180 lbs
trailer axles - 10600 lbs
total TV and TT - 19900 lbs

weigh #3 truck with trailer with 7.5" on jack height, 60 psi in air bags
steer axle - 4220 lbs
drive axle - 5040 lbs
trailer axle - 10600 lbs
total - 19900 lbs

By the looks of these numbers, I have two problems- not enough weight distribution and not enough tongue weight. Also, the more WD applied, the lighter my tongue weight gets. Only thing I can think of doing is adding a couple washers to get some downward angle on the bars and hopefully giving some more WD. That should also make hitching up a little more of a challenge! I'm really about to give up on the PP. It has been a huge hassle and so far performs a lot worse than any $200 WDH I've ever used. I'm hoping it's just a matter of some more tweaking of my set up. Anyone have any suggestions?

[ghaynes755]

You missed a weight that should also be taken. 0 height on the WD jacks. Bars loose. Also if you have a way of getting your actual trailer tongue weight that may be useful in trouble shooting. What does the manufacturer say the weight should be?

Have you called Sean at ProPride to discuss?

[dkottum]

BearGhost, the ProPride distributes weight and prevents sway for thousands of users, so I wouldn't spend too much time doubting the hitch.

You know the trailer swayed like crazy with another style hitch (which it shouldn't do either). I would be spending my time getting the truck and trailer set up and loads properly balanced for towing.

Air bags in the truck rear suspension can level the truck but distribute no weight. If the truck suspension is altered and allowing side movement, and the tire sidewalls are spongy, some level of sway may be had with any hitch. Is there heavy weight in the bed of the truck being the rear axle; that also adds to the weight the w.d. hitch has to lift for weight distribution.

I know nothing about toy haulers, 1500# towards the back of the trailer seems to offer a poor proportion if offset by heavy weight towards the front. Heavy loads should normally be over the axles, and lighter gear at the front and rear.

Looking at the rig one could get the sense the truck is lifted and has fat, squishy tires. If the wheels are offset outward that may add to any looseness of the tire sidewalls and suspension in sway or turns. A change to stock offset wheels and LT tires often can greatly reduce sway tendency.

[BearGhost]

Originally Posted by ghaynes755

You missed a weight that should also be taken. 0 height on the WD jacks. Bars loose. Also if you have a way of getting your actual trailer tongue weight that may be useful in trouble shooting. What does the manufacturer say the weight should be?

Have you called Sean at ProPride to discuss?

Weigh #2 was taken with 5.5" of height on the jack and that was pretty much zero WD. The bars were not loose, but were just starting to get snug. From weigh #2 to weigh #3 after cranking the jacks 2" I'm only getting 100 lbs put back on the steer axles, so that 5.5" is basically 0 height. The trailer specs say my tongue weight is 860 lbs. I talked to Sean after my original post (#1344) and we came to the conclusion that my original receiver was flexing, which it was, and thought that a class 5 would fix my issues. I believe it did help some.

Originally Posted by dkottum

BearGhost, the ProPride distributes weight and prevents sway for thousands of users, so I wouldn't spend too much time doubting the hitch.

You know the trailer swayed like crazy with another style hitch (which it shouldn't do either). I would be spending my time getting the truck and trailer set up and loads properly balanced for towing.

Air bags in the truck rear suspension can level the truck but distribute no weight. If the truck suspension is altered and allowing side movement, and the tire sidewalls are spongy, some level of sway may be had with any hitch. Is there heavy weight in the bed of the truck being the rear axle; that also adds to the weight the w.d. hitch has to lift for weight distribution.

I know nothing about toy haulers, 1500# towards the back of the trailer seems to offer a poor proportion if offset by heavy weight towards the front. Heavy loads should normally be over the axles, and lighter gear at the front and rear.

Looking at the rig one could get the sense the truck is lifted and has fat, squishy tires. If the wheels are offset outward that may add to any looseness of the tire sidewalls and suspension in sway or turns. A change to stock offset wheels and LT tires often can greatly reduce sway tendency.

My sway issues were alot worse when my UTV was pulled in front ways with the motor towards the rear. After backing it in, the sway was a little bit better. My toyhauler is designed to carry about 4000 lbs total payload and after seeing the scale weights, I know that I need to put as much weight as possible towards the front. The trip to the scales for weighs #2 and #3 I had the UTV backwards as far as possible to the front and over the axles.
I know that there are thousands of the PP hitches on the road, but I'm thinking my situation is unique with the lifted truck, dropped shank and toyhauler combo. My suspension is altered big time, but I've towed about 3 other rental toyhaulers bigger that the one I currently own, loaded to the max and they towed fine. Maybe my current Toyhauler is just designed differently and causing issues. The only solution I can think of trying for the next trip is tilting the head down, cranking the jacks up to 8.5" or more, making sure my tires are maxxed out on PSI, and there is no added weight in the bed of the truck. Thanks for all your help and hopefully I can this setup dialed in a little better!

[rmkrum]

Are the links from the jacks to the bars hooked to the jacks on the center of the three holes? It just seems loose to me...

I usually get tension in the WD bars before I raise the jacks 3-4 inches. I'm at full tension at between 6.5 to 7.5 inches measured from the jack plate to the bottom edge of the moving upper part of the jack tube.

I do have to adjust my jacks higher if the load on the AS is different. I adjust until any porpoising on the front end of the truck stops plus a bit. It's really a sea sick inducing ride if it's not cranked tight enough. On my stock Crew Cab Toyota Tacoma short bed I flat do not get any sway. Stock factory hitch does not seem to flex much either...

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[ghaynes755]

Bear you may have reached the limits of knowledge. Been following the ProPride thread for many years. Yours is the first setup as far as I can recall with a tricked out truck, tires, wheels and type of trailer. You may want to contact Andy at Can-Am RV (www.canamrv.ca). He has setup many different types of vehicles and a wealth of knowledge.

You may simply have a setup that is challenging with the changes to the suspension system on the truck and perhaps total weighting of the tongue on the trailer based on loading. That's why I asked about getting just a tongue weight with the trailer only, loaded the way you run it. May actually be to light.

[dkottum]

Bear, could you and a friend who has a stock Chev 2500 hook up to your trailer and see how his truck tows it? That may help you learn where the problem is; if it tows fine then the hitch and trailer are probably okay.

[Ohiobrits]

Bear, based on what you have described that you only have about 2" of real lift on the jacks (lift that generates load in the bars) I think you need to jack them up some more, maybe 1 or 2 inches? Your trailer ball cup appears to be about level with the top of the trailer frame which means the whole PP assembly is positioned higher by maybe an inch or two when compared to an Airstream. This means that when Airstream users talk about 6" lift we are getting and inch or 2 more relative lift of the jacks. Looks like your trailer frame is also deeper than on an Airstream which means the ends of your WD bars are close to the bottom of the trailer frame rails. Not sure how much more lift you can get on the jacks without the ends of the bars catching on the trailer frame.

Someone else asked this but what holes are you using on the WD straps? Typical is the center one, looks like the bottom on your photo but it is hard to see. You should use the lowest hole possible - that will maximize lift.

Couple of photos below to compare.

[cwf]

Bear.. this really doesn't sound too hard to settle. There will be several steps to set up.. it is NOT a 'plug and play'.. nothing in life really is.

A couple thoughts. By the fact you say you are loading the UTV in forward and backward causing different behavior/sway indicates you should take more care in how you load.. it DOES affect handling/sway.. therefore, what you experience

Next, when I load up my 34', I start applying WD bar force within 2 inches... I crank it up to 5.5" and it just rolls along fine.

every step is important... from loading trailer consistently, setting up the proper and consistent trailer load..you will then have a consistent 'ball height'.. which matches to a consistent/repeatable truck height front and rear fender heights.

For instance, if you add air to the bags, it raises the rear... this will cause the stinger to change angles, in fact raising the rear Reduces WD input because you tilt the stern of the stinger 'upward'. To counter this, always set your truck up the same way .. in "tow stance" if you will... By adding washers to the "pin", you will cause the stern of the stinger to tilt down... that will help the WD bars to apply proper load and transfer weight properly.

First, tho, you MUST set the trailer load and truck stance properly.. to be consistent. When you vary too many items at a time, you really can't expect a clear reading of the effect.

Quick story. My AS and ProPride were working great.. the PP needed rebuilding.. so I did that. When checking measurements for the PP calculations/adjustments, the concrete where I was measuring, APPEARED to be level.. It wasn't.. so it threw off my measurements. When I got on the road, the AS started swaying as I hit about 45 MPH.. That had not happened EVER with the PP... I pulled over, used some creative verbiage in my mind, but managed to only say "Mumble mumble mumble..."...

I rechecked the measurements in the parking lot where I pulled in.. guess what??? I had the stinger mounted ONE hole too LOW!! I used my battery powered impact wrench to change the receiver/hitch.. guess what??? 3000 miles with zero issues.

But, that was the ONLY adjustment I had changed.. so it was fairly easy to diagnose...

The PP works... when properly installed and adjusted for your rig... truck and trailer...

One other thought... since your truck is 'lifted'... are you sure there is no lateral movement in the rear differential/axle? There are ways to check this.. and needs to be addressed or your 'sway' may never be resolved.

you can do this!

[chracatoa]

Interesting. When my WD was not correctly set I would get a lot of porposing but no sway.

[SteveSueMac]

I'm at a loss. I think there are way too many variables in your setup for me to understand the problem other than to say - you definitely have at least one - if not several - in your setup!

Personally, I'd call Sean and get a consult right away and I'd take the advice to call Andy Thompson at CanAm as well. I don't understand some of his towing philosophy but he and his family must be doing something right with the thousands of rigs they've set up over the years. Yours has lots of chewy weirdness in it - I'd bet someone like him would love to figure that out. Good luck!

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, I'm really shocked to read that a few people actually had sway with hitches that "Eliminate Sway." How is that possible?

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, I'm really shocked to read that a few people actually had sway with hitches that "Eliminate Sway." How is that possible?

Don't believe it is....I'm suspicious of the lift kit and tires for perceived sway.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, I'm really shocked to read that a few people actually had sway with hitches that "Eliminate Sway." How is that possible?

Are you asking a question? It's hard not to infer you're making a statement.

[rmkrum]

Tall truck, off-road tires, soft suspension, any of that can cause sway.

Remember that the Hensley design locks the trailer in line with the tow vehicle by changing the sway forces to be forward of the hitch ball. If the TV suspension is not stiff enough to absorb the forces laterally, the whole thing will wobble.


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[slowmover]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

Are you asking a question? It's hard not to infer you're making a statement.

Great mechanical insight, wasn't it?

That pickup is as (almost) as bad as it gets for a stable tow vehicle. And, toyhaulers as a group are poor. Even before they're loaded.

The upgrade to a Class V receiver was good. Additional diagonal bracing forward from it to frame rails is recommended. There may also be slop with the drop shank. Check to see how it's starting to wear. There is likely some measurable slack when tightening hitch.

It's the height and the tires with the truck. The stock tires/wheels with LTX Michelin or Duravis Bridgestone lines would have been better. The latter has commercial traction models. Soft sidewalls and the wrong tread design is what you currently have.

The trailer is the real culprit. Tongue weight needs to be no less than 10%. 15% is the usual upper limit, but your TV can deal with that IF the trailer tongue is stout enough to handle 18%, say. The PP hitch has an upper limit.

I agree with having more values from scale readings. TT should be measured "empty": full propane and fresh water, plus what never leaves trailer. Then a reading as if loaded for a trip. And not until those should the "toy" be loaded. Because it would also be good to have values for each individual wheel, before and after the toy is loaded.

Likely one axle is loaded more heavily than the other. And one side of each axle is likely worse. It's not just TW.

In general, the majority of TT weight should be on or very close to the axles. This -- plus the side to side -- is where the problem starts. And that truck is a disaster with those tires/lift in getting steering feedback. TT accidents are about drivers loss of control. Due primarily to over correction.

Find the nearby truck stop with a CAT Scale and have a helper or two. One, inside at fuel desk to pay the tickets. The second to help you spot on the scale. Talk to the scale master or manager about what you're up to.

On a Saturday, it'll be slow. Get the reading and get off scale. Use parking space to make changes.

First pass across scale: Best hitch rough in (for the load). Use fender drop measurements for approximation. .

Second pass: Same as above but with all tension removed from hitch.

Third pass: TV alone (loaded as if for camping; use sand bags, etc, for simulation).

Fourth: Split TT axles on starboard side.

Fifth: Same for port side.

Go back and move trailer load around if need be. Measure heights at wheel fender. Re-test. Tensioned and untensioned. Need to be able to rule out bad frame or suspension components on trailer, FIRST.

Don't concern yourself too much with hitch settings. Even cranked hardest, the least weight goes to TT wheels. Get the rest, first.

The hitch isn't the problem. It's the trailer design, one; followed by the trailer load, two; and the height and tires of the truck, three.

Spend the day. Take your time. Flying J and T/A and Petro have real restaurants. Pilot and Loves have fast food.

Before you leave, give Sean a call if he's going to be available. Email the scale tickets after you've written on them what each one represents.

Do as well as you can with that. And then try Andy ( Andrew Thomson, Can Am RV) during the week after you think it's as good as you can get it. And plan to go back to said scale.

Work the details hard one time, in other words.

As a professional truck driver it's a standard (sick) joke that worst of the RV'ers are the toyhaulers. Those children in the backseat have no father. Baby Daddy is driving. Too high, too big and too fast.

Having watched several of them destroy themselves after passing me the past few years, I'd take it all damned seriously.

Good luck.