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Old 11-26-2012, 08:51 PM   #1065
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Originally Posted by Ron Gratz View Post
I really don't care what you prefer to do with your rig. But, are you now advising other Andersen owners that load transfer is not important?

Ron
Take your research a bit further and early on in this tread you will see that I questioned Andersen instructions that stated a 1 1/2 in. RISE in the front axle was acceptable. That is clearly beyond the range of the steering geometry of any vehicle.

Yes historically Andy T, Andy from Inland, Reese, and Ha Ha have championed adding additional weight to the front axle when using a spring bar WD hitch. While they or the manufactures never stated it was to reduce porpoising you may agree that additional weight on the front axle would shorten the ring out of that. I doubt that the lawyers would have ever suggested they openly comment on that as a problem with spring bar type of system but anyone who has ever driven with one knows about it.

No I am not suggesting that weight transfer is not necessary. Rather as stated above I now conclude that weight transfer does not have to return ALL vehicles to there unloaded position but rather in my case with the heaver TV I have accomplished good ride, good steering control and don't have to bust my self tightening down on the Acme screws to accomplish this. There will be some combinations of mostly of lighter TV that may require transferring enough weight to return the TV to it's original position to accomplish these conditions and to keep the rear springs from bottoming out. But I do not see any reasonable combination that would require adding additional weight to the front axle to cause it to ride below the original position.

Andersen is a completely new approach to both sway and WD and should not be bound by the rules that applied to spring bars systems. The warped wing approach was the first attempt to control flight. Yes it works for birds but it did not survive with rigid bodied planes. Who is to say that counter weights similar to those used to control earthquakes in building may not someday be hung on our back bumpers to control sway. I doubt that but I am sure there will be those that will question it and attempt to hold it to older standards if it comes.

I am glad you have afforded me some freedom in the management of my life. That is a diminishing quantity now days.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:06 PM   #1066
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CAT Scales for F-150 Andersen

I took the Ford to the scales today. First, I got the tongue weight with my Shurline and it was just a tad over 800 lbs.
CAT scales have a 20 pound +- accuracy and it showed up in my weights. The total rig weight has a 40 pound delta from 13,380 to 13,420.

Next are weights of the truck empty and attached with the WD loose. The target weight for return of front axle weight is 3500 pounds.

Next is the reading with 9 threads showing. That put 100 put back to front.
At 10 threads showing, got it within 100 pounds at 3400. That was very close to the limit that I could adjust. I may have to move my bracket back a little to get more adjustments. I did not have the tools to do it there and a truck broke down on the scales and had a line backed up waiting to get on.
I conclude that this hitch will move weight both to the front and back to the trailer. My last adjustment from 9 threads showing to 10 threads showing moved another 80 pounds back to the front. At 3400 pounds back on front, it is probably better than most of what is riding around out there but it should do better. The fender measurements were dead on 37 inches tightened up to 10 showing and unhitched from the trailer.
Last photo of bushing, I forgot to measure.
Enjoy!
Joe
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:04 PM   #1067
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Hi 'Rus, My urethane bushings compressed more than that I think to return the truck to it's unhitched attitude, about 2 3/8" front to back, so you have more to go if you need it.

I think if you run out of threads you could add washers behind the urethane bushing to get more compression, to save readjusting the brackets or changing chain length.

doug k
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:09 PM   #1068
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Great Joe you just popped their balloon and proved that the Andersen hitch works for WD. What are they going to challenge next?

Don't move your brackets just add some washers before the nut if you want more adjustment. There should be room before the eye on the bolt hits the face of the bracket
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:26 PM   #1069
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Joe, It looks as though your scales data are of really good quality.

I have taken the liberty of making two 20# adjustments to make your three hitched weighings internally consistent -- all three GCWs will equal 13,400# and the loads added to front axle, removed from rear axle, and added to trailer axles will have ratios of approximately 2:3:1.

I changed the 9-link trailer weight from 6380 to 6400 and the 10-link front axle weight from 3400 to 3380.

The "adjusted" values are: front axle -- rear axle -- trailer axles -- GCW

TV only: 3500 -- 2760
No WD: 3220 -- 3820 -- 6360 -- 13400
9 Links: 3320 -- 3680 -- 6400 -- 13400
10links: 3380 -- 3580 -- 6440 - - 13400

The indicated TW is (3220+3820)-(3500+2760) = 780# which agrees very well with your Sherline value of 800#.

The Front Axle Load Restoration for 9 links is (3320-3220)/(3500-3220) = 36%.
The FALR for 10 links is (3380-3220)/(3500-3220) = 57%.

I will add the two new FALR values to the chart.

Ron
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:07 PM   #1070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Hi 'Rus, My urethane bushings compressed more than that I think to return the truck to it's unhitched attitude, about 2 3/8" front to back, so you have more to go if you need it.

I think if you run out of threads you could add washers behind the urethane bushing to get more compression, to save readjusting the brackets or changing chain length.

doug k
That is a great idea Doug. Thanks! Would be simple. And thank you also HowieE.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:11 PM   #1071
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Quote:
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Joe, It looks as though your scales data are of really good quality.
Ron
Thanks Ron, it is a work in progress.
Joe
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:19 PM   #1072
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Error correction --

In my previous post, please read "link" as "thread".

Missed the 30-minute limit for editing a post.

Ron
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:21 PM   #1073
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The previously-posted chart is updated to include two data points (800#,36% and 800#,57%) calculated from data provided by AirHeadsRus for 9 threads and 10 threads respectively.

Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) is chosen as the indicator of load transfer effectiveness.
For measured front-axle loads, FALR is defined as the amount of load added by application of WD
divided by the amount of load removed by tongue weight (with NO WD applied).
For measured front-axle heights, FALR is defined as the front-end lowering due to application of WD
divided by the front-end rise due to tongue weight (with NO WD applied) .
When the front end is observed to be returned to the unhitched height, the FALR is taken to be 100%.

The data indicate FALR=100% can easily be achieved for low tongue weights.
However, for tongue weights in excess of 1000#, it is not clear that FALR=100% can be achieved.

The curves labeled "FALR Theory" are calculated from: FALR = 100*CT*2*LA*(1+BOH/TTL)/TW/BOH
where
CT = chain tension in #/chain
LA = lever arm from ball center to chain in ft (assumed to be 6.5"/12 per Bruce H.)
BOH = ball overhang in ft (assumed to be 5')
TW = tongue weight in lbs
TTL = distance from ball to mid-point between axles (assumed to vary from 12' for TW=400# to 20' for TW=1200#)

Contributors of data can be identifed by their TW and achieved FALR in the following table:

TW - FALR - Load/Height - Contributor - DataSource

400---100%----hgt.----SteveH------Airforums.com
400----91%----load----Bruce H.-----Lanceowners.com, RV.net, Airforums.com
900----75%----hgt.----gallifrey------RV.net
800----57%----load----airheadsrus---Airforums.com (updated for 10 threads)
600----54%----load----hbillsmith-----RV.net
800----50%----load----airheadsrus---Airforums.com
800----36%----load----airheadsrus---Airforums.com (new data for 9 threads)
1250---45%----load----housedad-----RV.net
960----43%----load----renojack------RV.net
600----43%----hgt.----zues----------Airforums.com
670----40%----load----HowieE-------Airforums.com

Ron
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:01 AM   #1074
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Please don't think I am trying to undermine this beautifully designed piece of equipment. I know many of you owners personally, and highly respect your opinions.

Looking at the Anderson, the fulcrum for weight distribution is the front surface of the ball. Looking at the HAHA or PP, I really can't tell, but the fulcrum appears to be inside the hitch assembly. Is the Anderson exerting a force on the trailer coupler, that the other designs don't? Or, is the fulcrum also on the ball with the other designs?

Does it even matter lol
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:08 AM   #1075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
Please don't think I am trying to undermine this beautifully designed piece of equipment. I know many of you owners personally, and highly respect your opinions.

Looking at the Anderson, the fulcrum for weight distribution is the front surface of the ball. Looking at the HAHA or PP, I really can't tell, but the fulcrum appears to be inside the hitch assembly. Is the Anderson exerting a force on the trailer coupler, that the other designs don't? Or, is the fulcrum also on the ball with the other designs?

Does it even matter lol
With all previous designs of WD hitches, the force of the bars is applied downward onto the ball.

With the Andersen, the force is applied to the rear of the ball, and with the tongue weight, it's sort of an angled forward and downward force on the ball.

This was discussed early in this thread to the point a call was made to Andersen to clarify.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:14 AM   #1076
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As noted above the fulcrum is on the back face of the ball. It is hard to envision at first but after a good nights sleep I came to terms with that and bought one.

Sky

You will be surrounded with Andersen hitches at the Can Opener so you will be able to see first hand what we at talking about.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:29 AM   #1077
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Thanks for the replies so fast. You guys are really on the ball. Yes Howie, I can hardly wait to see them, and their owners, at the CO.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:22 AM   #1078
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HowieE,
I went out yesterday and checked and sure enough at 10 1/2 threads the eye bolt hit the face. After work I went out and slid the brackets back about a full inch. Impact wrenches are wonderful things so it did not take long at all. After hooking up it now looks like around 5 threads showing get the bushing compressed to where the 10 threads were before.
For those that might ask, the previous brackets position had not slid forward. They were still on my pencil line. The dimple I drilled for the set screw held fine. I am glad I had not welded the bracket to frame and do not recommend doing it until you are sure where you need to be.
I'll get back to the scales sometime in December or maybe on the way to the Canopener.

Sky,
We look forward to seeing you guys at the CO. Are you still getting in on Thursday? Probably will be a few pots of chilli going that night.
Regards,

Joe


Quote:
Originally Posted by HowieE View Post

Don't move your brackets just add some washers before the nut if you want more adjustment. There should be room before the eye on the bolt hits the face of the bracket
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