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Old 11-23-2012, 06:20 PM   #1037
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Originally Posted by Road Ruler View Post
My view.....

Conventional WDH's are more sophisticated compared to the Andersen in the way they transfer weight to the front axles. There is more going on than just lifting the rear of the vehicle. There is a very effective twisting/rotating motion that occurs in the hitch head with the torsion bar design.
Actually they both work the same way by applying a rotational force about the point that the TV receiver attaches to the frame of the TV. The difference is how they generate that force on the shank of the hitch.

Now it is interesting that the principle objective of the Andersen hitch, Sway Control, has slipped aside in the comments of those attempting to discount the hitch and are now centered on WD. While WD is still a consideration in many cases it is not as important as it was 30+ years ago when most were towing with lightly sprung cars. Trucks have mostly replaced cars as the TV and come with much heaver springs sets thus tongue weight no longer has as detrimental effect on the stability of the rigs. Long gone are the days when you headlights analyzed the condition of the telephone wires strung across the road as you drove along without a WD hitch.

For those attempting to discount the hitch lets get back to what is does in comparison to the competition.

This Bees does fly and that is what it is all about.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:38 PM   #1038
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For those who are interested in load transfer data and theory --

Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) is chosen as the indicator of load transfer effectiveness.
For measured front-axle loads, FALR is defined as the amount of load added by application of WD
divided by the amount of load removed by tongue weight (with NO WD applied).
For measured front-axle heights, FALR is defined as the front-end lowering due to application of WD
divided by the front-end rise due to tongue weight (with NO WD applied) .
When the front end is observed to be returned to the unhitched height, the FALR is taken to be 100%.

The data indicate FALR=100% can easily be achieved for low tongue weights.
However, for tongue weights in excess of 1000#, it is not clear that FALR=100% can be achieved.

The curves labeled "FALR Theory" are calculated from: FALR = 100*CT*2*LA*(1+BOH/TTL)/TW/BOH
where
CT = chain tension in #/chain
LA = lever arm from ball center to chain in ft (assumed to be 6.5"/12 per Bruce H.)
BOH = ball overhang in ft (assumed to be 5')
TW = tongue weight in lbs
TTL = distance from ball to mid-point between axles (assumed to vary from 12' for TW=400# to 20' for TW=1200#)

Contributors of data can be identifed by their TW and achieved FALR in the following table:

TW - FALR - Load/Height - Contributor - DataSource

400---100%----hgt.----SteveH------Airforums.com
400----91%----load----Bruce H.-----Lanceowners.com, RV.net, Airforums.com
900----75%----hgt.----gallifrey------RV.net
600----54%----load----hbillsmith-----RV.net
800----50%----load----airheadsrus---Airforums.com
1250---45%----load----housedad-----RV.net
960----43%----load----renojack------RV.net
600----43%----hgt.----zues----------Airforums.com
670----40%----load----HowieE-------Airforums.com

Ron
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:26 PM   #1039
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50-60% FA restoration, on average: Insert wishful thinking for the balance of the remainder.

.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:20 PM   #1040
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No wishful thinking here Red, mine levels the trailer and resets the attitude of the truck. Which makes me wonder why the broad range of results in the table. Although I am not here to prove/disprove this hitch, I post what I know from use. Otherwise take your pick of the armchair experts, who represent most of the thread.

Improper installation/adjustment procedure or inadequate hitch. I noted a couple of adjustment issues on his thread.

Andrew Thomson cast great doubt about the hitch supporting an early contention that the hitch would simply stretch the chains. When he finally tested on a severely modified suspension vehicle, he told us it wouldn't work and posted completely bogus photos as evidence. This comes from the hitch expect.

HowieE is a user of the hitch who has been attempting to get his properly installed and adjusted, but is going against a headwind for assistance. It's winter in New Jersey and perhaps has set it aside to spring (I would). He has a level trailer and light transfer of weight, with little bushing compression. This suggests he simply needs to move his ball assembly in the drop bar to get more weight transfer and bring the trailer back to level. Did he get help? Heck no, Andrew Thomson instead tells him he is getting inadequate weight transfer, suggesting to all the hitch is no good.

Take your pick of the information, I don't think their is any fair resolution from the commercial vendor and am scratching my head about the various tables posted. Thanks to Ron Gratz for posting the chart. The variable seems to be whether these people have set up the hitch properly.

Red' has got his numbers and jumped to a conclusion. My experience with the hitch suggests no-so-quick.

doug k
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:18 PM   #1041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff View Post
Is it the consensus of Anderson hitch users that the data reported by Ron Gratz contains a lot of improper hitch set up?

I thought simplicity of the design was one of the benefits.
Sean,

I interpret Ron's data to show that, like users of all manufacturer's weight distribution hitches, there are a lot that are satisfied with just getting close to perfection with respect to hitch adjustment.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:22 PM   #1042
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Quote:
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Sean,

I interpret Ron's data to show that, like users of all manufacturer's weight distribution hitches, there are a lot that are satisfied with just getting close to perfection with respect to hitch adjustment.

Thanks, Steve.

So you believe that the Anderson hitch could return the front axle weights to 100%, with tongue weights of 600# and up, with proper hitch set up?

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Old 11-26-2012, 12:25 PM   #1043
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Let's assume for a minute that it's true that on average, the Anderson does not return the steer axle weight to unhitched values.

Let's further assume that the subjective driving experience of the users of this hitch is that the rig rides and handles well with their chosen adjustments.

Could this imply that it's not necessary to return all the weight to the steer axles in order to get a good driving rig ?

I'm just thinking out loud here, because if I am not mistaken, I believe there is at least one tow vehicle manufacturer ( late model GM light duty truck ? ) that state when using a weight distributing hitch, that you do not have to return to the front to it's original ride height ( it can remain higher than unhitched height ). Somebody jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong about whether it's GM that states this or not.

george
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:40 PM   #1044
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That's a good point, George.

However, porpoising is a symptom of improper weight distribution. Without the front axle loaded enough there will be "bounce" in some combinations.

That said, some tow vehicles will not bounce with under 100% of the front axle load.

-

P.S. - there are A LOT of 5th wheels being towed by tow vehicles without the front axle loaded to 100%. Take a look at their bobble head drivers when you pass.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:44 PM   #1045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff View Post
Thanks, Steve.

So you believe that the Anderson hitch could return the front axle weights to 100%, with tongue weights of 600# and up, with proper hitch set up?

-
Sean,

Mine compensated for the 400 pound tongue weight so easily, that I think it will not be a problem.

Also, I don't like Andersen's instructions because they tell you to adjust the nuts for a certain amount of compression of the nylon "springs", which I think is wrong, and may be even contributing to the results shown in ron's chart. I adjusted the nuts on my hitch to return the tow vehicle front to the unhitched height, which is how I adjust the WD part of all WD hitches.

The thing that I think may be clouding the results is the fact that the Anderson, unlike most all the rest of the non projection hitches built, does not rely on the friction CAUSED BY the WD system to provide sway control.

With the Andersen, as long as the chains have no slack in them, the sway control works great, no matter the amount of weight distribution adjusted in. ALL OTHER conventional WD hitches, that I know of, must have a certain amount of weight on the bars for the anti-sway system to work.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:49 PM   #1046
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That's a good point, George.

However, porpoising is a symptom of improper weight distribution. Without the front axle loaded enough there will be "bounce" in some combinations.
Sean,

It is my opinion that the Andersen is so effective at reducing the porpoising because the nylon "springs" do not release their stored up energy near as fast as a steel spring does.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:52 PM   #1047
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The amount of weight (whatever that is), directed to the front axles should be an amount related to optimum handling and performance. I will continue to rely on the experience of seasoned towing professionals to advise.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:52 PM   #1048
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Ron

I am not sure I can take any validity from your graph when 3 of the components of the formula are assumed and one, chain tension, you are just placing an arbitrary value on.

The important thing in all this is can the hitch maintain reasonable steering geometry, vehicle control, and provide adequate sway control. To date all that have used the hitch are reporting that it does.

Given that we have pretty much excepted that a significant percentage of the WD hitches on the road are not set up correctly why are we nit picking one that has such a high degree of confidence from it's users?

Yes the scale tickets I presented show a 120 lbs removed from the front axle of my Excursion, a vehicle with a 4220 lbs front axle dry load. I could have the same results if I loaded the rear of the truck, without a trailer attached. Are you saying that would be unsafe? If not why make such a fuss over that weight reduction when the trailer is attached. If I removed several hundred lbs. when hitched I would agree more weight would have to be transferred to the front axle or the vehicle would have lost significant steering control and put the steering geometry in a condition to adversely effect tire ware. 120 lbs lose does neither.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:55 PM   #1049
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Quote:
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Sean,

It is my opinion that the Andersen is so effective at reducing the porpoising because the nylon "springs" do not release their stored up energy near as fast as a steel spring does.

That makes sense.

Porpoising can also contribute to decreasing the load required to create enough friction for sway damping.



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Old 11-26-2012, 01:09 PM   #1050
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Porpoising can also contribute to decreasing the load required to create enough friction for sway damping.
-
With a conventional weight distribution/sway control hitch, that is correct, but not with a PPP hitch.
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