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Old 12-29-2012, 09:37 AM   #1121
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Check the weight of your Reese vs the Andersen. I would wager your tongue weight will go down by quite a bit by just changing to the Andersen.
Exactly Steve, my tongue weight dropped by 200 pounds when I went from Hensley to Andersen. It think everything on the Andersen is 48 pounds which includes the stinger and ball assembly.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:52 AM   #1122
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Yea, I just checked etrailer and a complete Reese DC with shank is 103 lbs shipping weight, minus ball, so maybe 105.

So, the Andersen would be a savings of at least 50 lbs.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:15 AM   #1123
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Here are the scale tickets. The top one is with the Andersen hitched and the back one without the Andersen.

Keep in mind that these scales have a + or - accuracy of 20 lbs.

Yes the TV GCW of the system should remain the same, 17,200 + or _ 20 lbs and is within the accuracy of the scale.

However i trust you will admit that in order to change the weights on the TV axles weight beyond the accuracy of the scale, 240 lbs, a force had to be applied external to the TV to accomplish this. Like maybe from the rear axles of the trailer since that is the only other point of application other than extraterrestrial.

Yes the weigh transferred to the trailer in this case, a long trailer, appears to be too small for the accuracy of the scales to define with the tension I had on the chains at that point. However I trust you will accept that some force had to be applied to the TV to make the weights of the TV change.

Next time you see a beam or bridge with a cable slung below it supporting the beam at the center point and have a turn buckle to tighten the cable you will see how the Andersen works.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:20 AM   #1124
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The commercial scale industry must be thriving now. Great for the economy.

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Old 12-29-2012, 10:41 AM   #1125
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RLS, perhaps another picture will help.

Looking at extremes sometimes helps me understand what is going on between the extremes. Lets assume hitch and trailer components are made of infinite strength and adjustment range. Also assume the tongue weight is so much, it raises the TV's front wheel off the ground. Yes, I know what ASSUME stands for.

Theoretically (kids, never try this at home), the rear wheel of the TV could be raised off the ground as any WD hitch is tightened. This progression clearly shows the transfer of weight to the TV front axle and trailer axles, regardless of using vertical or horizontal forces to operate the hitch.

OK there, I made an ASS out of me anyway.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:02 AM   #1126
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Originally Posted by RLS View Post
---The suv I have has a limit of 7100lbs. The suv fully loaded by itself weighs 6240lbs. Fully loaded and hitched using a Reese dual cam I am at 7040lbs. I also use a shoreline and my tongue weight is right at 1050lbs.
Bob, your numbers indicate a load of 7040-6240 = 800# is added to the TV when hitched with WD applied by the Dual Cam.

The indicated amount of load transferred to the TT's axles is 1050-800 = 250#.
That's a reasonable amount of transfer for a 1200# spring-bar WDH.

I don't know of anyone who has come close to transferring 250# to the TT's axles using an Andersen WDH.
I'm estimating that HowieE was able to transfer about 50#, and the data reported by AirHeadsRus indicated he was able to transfer about 40# with 9 threads showing and 80# with 10 threads showing.

With the Andersen WDH, the amount of load transferred to the TT's axles is approximately equal to the combined chain tension multiplied by the ratio of perpendicular distance from chain to center of ball divided by the distance from ball to midpoint between TT's axles.

Andersen user BruceH has reported the distance from chain to ball center is 6.5".
If we assume the ball to axles distance for your TT is 190",
the combined chain tension required to transfer 250# would be approximately:
combined chain tension = 250# times 190" divided by 6.5" = 7300#.
The required tension per chain would be about 3650#.

Andersen users have provided 12 sets of data from which chain tensions can be estimated.
Two users were able to achieve an indicated tension of about 2000# per chain -- but both expressed concern about the amount of bushing compression required.
One other user reported an "exploded" bushing when trying to achieve sufficient load transfer with 1150# tongue weight.

If you could reduce the load on the TV by 50# by changing from Dual Cam to Andersen, your target of 250# load transfer could be reduced to 200#.
Even with that reduction, the required Andersen chain tension would be approximately 2900# per chain.

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Old 12-29-2012, 06:50 PM   #1127
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Sky, I appreciate the drawing, but have no problem in understanding how a WD works, my problem which has been satisfied was trying to figure out how the Andersen one could do what a reg. WD can do.

I think (that always gets me in trouble) the Andersen people should make potential buyers aware of the fact that their hitch has limitations on what it can do. JMHO. There is more of the hitch weight put on the TV. No big deal, unless you are already close to your limits, like I am.

Thanks again for all that helped on this, Bob
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:56 AM   #1128
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Bob, the other hitch mfgs don't warn you that you going to bounce like a porpoise going down many roadways, nor that they don't have anywhere near the friction sway control that the Andersen does.

Now whether it distributes satisfactory weight to achieve a properly handling and balanced tow vehicle has been determined by a lot of folks who don't use it. A hitch expert from Canada didn't like it either, but then when was the last time he recommended the superior-to-Hensley and less expensive Propride Hitch to his clients.

We've towed across the country and back with the Andersen and have little criticism. I suspect the Propride is still top of top of the line for those who have difficulty with the various friction style hitches.

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Old 12-30-2012, 09:57 AM   #1129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLS View Post
I think (that always gets me in trouble) the Andersen people should make potential buyers aware of the fact that their hitch has limitations on what it can do. JMHO. There is more of the hitch weight put on the TV. No big deal, unless you are already close to your limits, like I am.
I believe that if that if we had wheel weights for the same vehicle/trailer combination with any two weight distributing hitches removing the same amount of weight from the rear wheels, that we would find that they both distribute the same amount of weight to the tow vehicle's front wheels and to the trailer wheels. That weight will be distributed in proportion to the distance of the wheels from the hitch. I don't understand how one WD hitch could put a greater proportion of that weight on the TV than another.

WD hitches may vary in how and to what extent they accomplish this weight transfer, but I don't think they can change the proportion transfered to the other wheels as that's determined by the setup of the vehicle and trailer.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:33 AM   #1130
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WD hitches may vary in how and to what extent they accomplish this weight transfer, but I don't think they can change the proportion transfered to the other wheels as that's determined by the setup of the vehicle and trailer.
That's correct.

The relative proportions are determined by two TV/TT dimensions.

D1 is the TV's wheelbase.

D2 is the distance from the TV's rear axle to the midpoint between the TT's axles.

The ratio of load added to the TV's front axle divided by load added to the TT's axles is equal to D2/D1.

The ratio of load removed from the TV's rear axle divided by load added to the TT's axles is equal to (D1+D2)/D1.

If D1 is 130" and D2 is 260", each 1# of load transferred to the TT's axles causes 2# to be added to the front axle and 3# to be removed from the rear.

The difference between the Andersen WDH and the spring-bar WDHs is that the Andersen is much more limited as to how much load it can transfer to the TT's axles.
The spring-bar WDHs generate torque using a lever arm of about 30".
The Andersen WDH generates torque using a lever arm reported to be about 6.5".

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Old 12-30-2012, 10:44 AM   #1131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Gratz View Post
The Andersen WDH generates torque using a lever arm reported to be about 6.5".

Ron
Not a big difference, but I measure my Andersen at 6 3/4" center of ball to center of chain bracket.

This is the 2" ball version, and so I would think the 2 5/16" ball version would be slightly more.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:50 AM   #1132
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Bob,
May I suggest that if you have not already done so give Andersen a call or email. They will be very happy to discuss their system in as much detail as you would like. It is no secret that I am not at all interested in the "numbers" that some are so hung up on. Dave Andersen was able to dumb down the discussion so that I had no problem at all understanding how to set up the system for my specific trailer and TV combination to get the best results. Others here have also talked directly with them and have had the same result with the discussions being much more detail/numbers related. They are a very friendly customer service oriented company that has resulted in a significant redesign of the mounts based on direct input from Airstream owners.
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Old 12-30-2012, 11:10 AM   #1133
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For those who are still at a loss to see that transfer of weight for and aft has to be in the same proportions of force applied to the receiver regardless of the type of WD hitch used. Set back to kindergarten and the seesaw. What you put on one side has to be reacted to by what you put on the other side.

There is no way you can have a reaction on the front axle of the TV without have an equal reaction on the trailer. Distance in each direction from the TV rear axle times the weight increased on the front TV axle and the trailer axles will be equal in foot pounds.

The factor that many are hung up on is the historic claim by the bar type manufactures that you have to see a significant increase in weight applied to the front of the TV and trailer to accomplish a proper setup. This requirement has considerations that may not apply today.

When trailers were towed by Cadilacs, Lincolns, and other softly sprung vehicles WD hitches HAD to remove weight from the rear axle of the TV to keep the headlights on the road. Today most are towing with some form of truck/Suburban and the rear axles can support a higher load thus removing that consideration. Another factor supporting the higher transfer of weight via the bar type hitches was the need to have significant force applied to the Sway control function, friction at the point of contact, of that type of hitch.

Given the heaver spring packs of the current tow vehicles and the fact that the sway control aspect is accomplished in a completely different manor excessive transfer is no longer required.

As long as the Andersen transfers enough weight to the front axle of the TV to maintain original steering geometry and you have not exceed the load limits of the rear axle of the TV any additional is a waste.

Yes there may be a few vehicles with lightly sprung spring pack, vans, that will require more force than the Andersen may be capable of transferring to return the front axle to a safe steering geometry.

Those individuals are destine not to have available to them the advantages of the Andersen hitch, ease of hitching, no porpoising, grease on their cloths, significant cost reduction, and frequent readjustment of worn parts, can look on in envy to those who have been able to take a leap forward.
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:39 PM   #1134
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Howie; if my recollection is correct. You had not been using a WD hitch prior to the Andersen. I think you have air bags on the rear axle. Am I correct?
I recently purchased and installed air bags for the '08 Tundra and an Andersen hitch. Haven't hitched the 26' Argosy (tongue weight 800#) yet, since it is winter here in Nebraska.
My thought process is to hitch the trailer to the truck without the Anderson system under tension. Then level the rig with the air bags. Once that is complete and I know how much pressure to inflate the air bags. Then go thru the setup that Andersen recommends.
My expectations are. The tension on the Andersen hitch will be lower do to the assistance of the air bags.
Since the rear axle of the TV acts as a fulcrum. The combination of the Andersen hitch and the airbags will set the TV at the correct level for the steering geometry.
I expect to set the pressure of the airbags at @25#'s, which will be what is required for an 800# load. 1 pound of pressure for 32 pounds of lift. Since the trailer will be loaded, ready for travel, the Andersen system will be required to handle any additional weight that I put in the truck, plus give me the sway control.
My previous TV was a '98 Dodge 3/4 to extended cab with an 8' box. It had air bags, I didn't use any WD. It worked well. Since I "upgraded" to a 1/2 ton truck with an 18" shorter wheel base. I thought a WD may be in order.
While I did not experience any sway with the larger truck and since the new truck has a shorter wheel base, an anti sway system may be in order.
I am looking forward to the "great experiment", I'll call it. To see if my theory pans out. After all! It works on paper.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:38 PM   #1135
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No I have not used air bags since I had a 1976 Ford Torino as my TV. As noted in a past post that was a softly sprung car and needed some help over and above what the Reese WD would provide. The max pressure on those bags was 5 lbs. if I remember right. On a 5 in. dia. bag that is close to a 200lbs lift

While I can not argue against your basic idea I would suggest you consider setting the air bags to cover about half the 800 lbs. rather than the complete load. I mention this because I thing you will see unnecessary porpoising if the Andersen bushings are not applying some damping to the system. Additionally while not towing you head lights may be in the ground.

Another consideration if there is little or no load in the chains you may see a time delay in the sway control aspects of the hitch.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:56 PM   #1136
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Originally Posted by TG Twinkie View Post
My thought process is to hitch the trailer to the truck without the Anderson system under tension. Then level the rig with the air bags. Once that is complete and I know how much pressure to inflate the air bags. Then go thru the setup that Andersen recommends.
My expectations are. The tension on the Andersen hitch will be lower do to the assistance of the air bags.
Since the rear axle of the TV acts as a fulcrum. The combination of the Andersen hitch and the airbags will set the TV at the correct level for the steering geometry.
I expect to set the pressure of the airbags at @25#'s, which will be what is required for an 800# load. 1 pound of pressure for 32 pounds of lift. Since the trailer will be loaded, ready for travel, the Andersen system will be required to handle any additional weight that I put in the truck, plus give me the sway control.
My previous TV was a '98 Dodge 3/4 to extended cab with an 8' box. It had air bags, I didn't use any WD. It worked well. Since I "upgraded" to a 1/2 ton truck with an 18" shorter wheel base. I thought a WD may be in order.
While I did not experience any sway with the larger truck and since the new truck has a shorter wheel base, an anti sway system may be in order.
I am looking forward to the "great experiment", I'll call it. To see if my theory pans out. After all! It works on paper.
LOL
Just my opinion, but IF I was planning to use air bags, I would reverse your planned procedure. i.e., I would first set the WD hitch to return all the weight I could to the front tow vehicle axle, and then I would inflate the air bags to return the rear of the TV if needed.

I think the outcome would be more satisfactory done this way.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:05 PM   #1137
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the historic claim by the bar type manufactures

The body in question is SAE, the Society of Automotive Engineers. Not aftermarket manufacturers . . except those who market a product unable to deliver on the basic premise: restoration of Front Axle Load.

That a 4-500/lb load can be done isn't impressive when most A/S TTs have TW's in excess of this. That it can barely seem to restore 50% on heavier TW's make calling it a "weight-distributing hitch" questionable. To put it mildly.


.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:31 PM   #1138
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For those who may have missed it I think this says it ALL.




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Old 12-31-2012, 05:21 AM   #1139
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After reading this whole thread I have reached 2 conclusions.

1) The Andersen hitch works well and has many advantages over conventional designs. Those who have used it, almost all speak well of it.

2) It does not transfer weight as well as spring bar hitches. It transfers weight, just not as much.

This can be an advantage. We have seen threads before, where some people had heavy duty tow vehicles with heavy duty hitches, that were too stiff and actually shook their Airstreams to pieces.

In cases like that the Andersen with its light smooth action, would be much better.

In other cases, where a light vehicle was towing a heavy trailer, the Andersen might not transfer enough weight to level the tow vehicle. In that case another brand of hitch with spring bars might work better.
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Old 12-31-2012, 08:58 AM   #1140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganaraska
After reading this whole thread I have reached 2 conclusions.

1) The Andersen hitch works well and has many advantages over conventional designs. Those who have used it, almost all speak well of it.

2) It does not transfer weight as well as spring bar hitches. It transfers weight, just not as much.

This can be an advantage. We have seen threads before, where some people had heavy duty tow vehicles with heavy duty hitches, that were too stiff and actually shook their Airstreams to pieces.

In cases like that the Andersen with its light smooth action, would be much better.

In other cases, where a light vehicle was towing a heavy trailer, the Andersen might not transfer enough weight to level the tow vehicle. In that case another brand of hitch with spring bars might work better.
So let's go with those conclusions for the sake of the discussion. And let's say a heavy duty TV doesn't need as much WD. How do users of the Andersen feel about the sway control capability. I've been under the impression that the HaHa and PP eliminate sway and all others react to it using different mechanisms. The Andersen does it with a brake pad of sorts in the hitch ball. Any experience with that pro or con? Also, is there a standard way to measure that? I ask because some of those heavy duty TVs also have a form of sway control (auto braking) built in so is it possible the Andersen is a better choice for HD TVs that are doing more of the work traditional hitches have been doing??
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