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Old 11-21-2012, 08:49 AM   #1001
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gmw photos,

"pretty much industry standard to use scales to verify weight distribution." I don't know where this comes from, I have used an Equal-I-Zer and Andersen hitch and neither mentioned weight scales in their setup procedure. That's why I didn't weigh. It's certainly not worth the considerable effort on my part to do it for the benefit of this forum because no matter what you say or do, someone will dispute it anyway.

If you want real numbers, get your hitch and take it to the scales. I'm not going to do it so you can sit back and critique my efforts.

I've set my Andersen up according to instructions, posted photos of how it can be easily done, road "tested" it for 3700 miles, and reported the results from the driver's seat in real world conditions. This was started as a user's thread and there's my contribution.

doug k
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:00 AM   #1002
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Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
[I]Howie, I posted the numbers on weight transfer because of your posting of your numbers. According your numbers your front axle with an empty truck carries 4220 pounds this is reduced to 4040 with the Anderson connected, your rear axle is 4200 with a solo truck and is 5000 with the Anderson connected.

You are removing 180 pounds from your front axle and adding 800 pounds to your rear axle when you connect your relatively light hitch weight 34'. This is just not an acceptable amount of weight transfer.

Just trying to help.

Andrew T
Andrew

I agree, not good, and is opposite of the load equalizing hitch purpose.

Andy
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:30 AM   #1003
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Howie, move the ball mount in your drop bar down a notch to quiet these folks.

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Old 11-21-2012, 09:40 AM   #1004
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Doug,
Contribution noted. Certainly, one of the best things we get out of a forum exchange like this is the subjective comments. To use your words, "road tested for 3700 miles, and report the results..."

These kinds of comments go a long way in helping readers decide and choose what does work in the real world, and what may not work.

My original point was that there seems to be two kinds of users of this stuff: the folks who just use whatever the dealer sells them, and they may not even care "how" it works.
And the second group of folks seem to be what I will call the "gearheads"....those of us that enjoy thinking about how these various systems work, and want a complete understanding of it. And that was my point, it seems that many of the Anderson users are gearheads, and generally the gearheads among us often like to go to the scales, if for no other reason that to see what really is happening.

And yes, as I stated in my first post, I have in fact taken my camper and truck to the scales. In fact I have had all of our combinations on the scale ( Nissan with camper, Nissan with bumper pull horse trailer, F350 with 33' gooseneck horse hauler, and F350 with 28' flatdeck ). To me, it's all part of knowing whether I am within all the prescribed limits of the equipment, in addition to satisfying my curiosity.

As to whether it's "industry standard" to use scale, perhaps I am overstating that, but I will say that it says in the Resse manual ( among many other things )

DETERMINE GTW & TW CAPACITIES
The two most important factors in selecting towing
equipment are gross trailer weight (GTW) and tongue
weight (TW).......( snip )

........is measured by placing the fully loaded trailer on
a vehicle scale. The entire weight of the trailer should......( snip )"

Point being, I know of no other way to know (with accuracy) how we are loaded.

If you choose to not avail yourself and your rig to a trip to the scale, that's of course fine with me. Kindly don't take my posts wrong, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anybody here....simply making comments and trying to get not only subjective thoughts and comments, but also objective data.

Thanks, and safe towing to all, george
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:54 AM   #1005
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George, perhaps you're right and everyone else has some right too.

My patience is getting thin in that we try to report how to set up this hitch and the excellence performance is has given us.

Then we get the engineers explaining that it won't work through formulas and calculations.

Then we get the vendors of other hitches screwing around with our efforts to obviously discredit it and frankly, make fools out of us.

Then we get the casual observer telling us numbers answers all.

Then the gear heads who want us to do their methods because its fun.

That's why I say get your hitch and use it for whatever purpose or agenda you may have.

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Old 11-21-2012, 09:57 AM   #1006
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George,

I forgot the post number, but there is a chart on page 41 of this thread produced by an Andersen hitch user of another brand of trailer that shows all his weights in detail.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:44 AM   #1007
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Originally Posted by Ron Gratz View Post
That might be true --
but doesn't change the fact that every WDH, including the Andersen WDH,
adds load to the TV's front axle,
removes load from the TV's rear axle, and
adds load to the trailer's axle(s).

Ron
Ron, I have gone back and studied Bruce H's chart of weights on page 41 of this thread, and you are right that the Andesen WD hitch does add some of the tongue weight back onto the trailer's axles.

However, I have always heard it stated by many hitch "guru's", and this going back some 36+ years I have been using them, that a properly adjusted WD hitch will add 1/3 (or 33%) of the tongue weight back onto the trailer's axles. The MOST weight that Bruce's chart shows added to the trailer's axles is 80 pounds, or 20% of the trailer's 400 pound tongue weight.

So, it is my conclusion from Bruce's data that the Andersen WD hitch transfers less of the tongue weight back onto the trailer's axle than a conventional bar type WD hitch.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:27 PM   #1008
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Steve,
Are these weights good or bad. My tongue weight is about 1100 pounds according to my scales. Looks like adjusted the weight going back to axles is less than 10%.
FYI, the unhooked weight was on a different day with the bed of the truck completely empty. The hooked up weight was fully loaded for camping.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:31 PM   #1009
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I think I'm the only one Test the Andersen hitch and propride using the same truck and the same Trailer . I can tell you they are big different on everything . Propride is the one no sway at all at any condition . When I back up my trailer Andersen hitch is turning too sharp . Propride is much easier to back up . The price is big different but it is worth for everything
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:56 PM   #1010
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Originally Posted by AirHeadsRus View Post
Steve,
Are these weights good or bad. My tongue weight is about 1100 pounds according to my scales. Looks like adjusted the weight going back to axles is less than 10%.
FYI, the unhooked weight was on a different day with the bed of the truck completely empty. The hooked up weight was fully loaded for camping.
Joe
Those weights look pretty close, maybe even as close as you can get, but the hitched weight on the front axle needs to be a little heavier, and most vehicle manufacturers today, at least of trucks, spec the front axle weight to be the same as without the trailer. So, to be perfect, you need to add 60 pounds to the front axle.

We've already determined that the repeatablity of these scales is only 20 pounds.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:22 PM   #1011
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Thanks Steve,
Those were the weights I did in January when I was hitched with the Hensley. As I recall, it was cranked up fairly high but probably could have gotten another 60 pounds if I had to. It towed fine so I saw no need to adjust further and had read here somewhere you just need to get the drive and steer axles about 10% difference.
I am attaching the CAT results from the scale trip I took in June with the Anderson. The results with the WD need to be adjusted up by 100 pounds on steer axle and 100 pounds on the drive. I was out of the truck when they took that reading but in the truck with the other one. I weigh 200 pounds give or take a few. So the numbers should be 3000# steer and 3560# drive I guess?
From me looking at it, it appears I'm moving 180 pounds to the steering axle and 80 to the trailer axles. Is that enough, I do have room to tighten up more but it pulls great now.
I like playing on the scales and I may go get another look in a couple of weeks. What this does show me is the trailer axles are over by 200 lbs so I really do not want more weight on them. I have paired down a lot and think I would be back under but would like to see. Needs to be 3200 per axle.
Joe
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:30 PM   #1012
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I'm not too sure I understand which one of those was with and which one without you in the truck, but assuming you are still with the same pickup truck, I'd say you have too much weight on the steer axle with the last set of numbers.

There have been arguments....er, discussions on here in the past about the amount of weight on the axles, but most modern truck manufactuers say to just return the weight to the front axle, not to increase the load.

Now if it were a sedan, that's a different story.

Edit: OK, now I understand....you have posted five different tickets, the third being the truck without the trailer, and the fourth and fifth, with and without WD using the Andersen. Yes, it look like you need a little more weight on the steering axle, but it's certainly close. Probably closer than a lot of the rigs running on the road today, nomatter the hitch brand.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:53 AM   #1013
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However, I have always heard it stated by many hitch "guru's", and this going back some 36+ years I have been using them, that a properly adjusted WD hitch will add 1/3 (or 33%) of the tongue weight back onto the trailer's axles.---
Steve, a few "gurus" claim that a properly-adjusted WDH will cause 1/3 of the TW to end up on the TV's front axle, 1/3 on the rear axle, and 1/3 on the trailer's axles. However, as I explained in this post -- //http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464/is-this-true-wdh-does-change-the-loads-carried-by-all-three-axles-95602-2.html#post1194405 --
As for a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 distribution Ė it is possible, but quite unlikely. First, you would have to transfer a load equal to 1/3 of the TW to the trailer axles. This requires an unusually high loading of the WD bars. A range of 15-25% is more typical. Second, the distance from the ball coupler to the midpoint between the trailerís axles would have to be exactly equal to the TVís wheelbase plus two times the ball overhang. Obviously, this cannot apply to all TV/TT combinations.

Quote:
The MOST weight that Bruce's chart shows added to the trailer's axles is 80 pounds, or 20% of the trailer's 400 pound tongue weight.
Bruce's chart show that, for the TT attached and chains loose, the TT axle load was 3020#. With 3/16" compression, the TT axle load was 3120#. This indicates the Andersen WDH caused a load of 100# (about 25% of TW) to be added to the TT's axles.

Quote:
So, it is my conclusion from Bruce's data that the Andersen WD hitch transfers less of the tongue weight back onto the trailer's axle than a conventional bar type WD hitch.
If your objective is to return the TV's front axle to the unhitched load, for a wide range of TV/TT dimensions, the WDH needs to transfer a load equal to about 25% of TW to the TT's axles. For Bruce's rig, the unhitched front axle load was 2520# and the front axle load, when hitched with 3/16" compression, was 2500#.

I think we can agree that Bruce's WDH was able to transfer a load equal to about 25% of his 400# TW to the TT's axles.
With a conventional bar-type WDH, if you want to transfer more load, you can purchase bars with a greater rating.
With the Andersen WDH, you would have to increase the compression of the urethane spring.
Does anyone know how much compression the urethane can withstand?

Ron
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:02 AM   #1014
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The amount of weight transfered to the trailer wheels is a function of the tow vehicle wheel base, rear overhang and the distance from the ball to the trailer's wheels. If you think of it in the extreme sometimes it is easier to see.

If you had trailer 5' long with 1000 pounds of hitch weight and equalized it on a long pick up almost all of the hitch weight would be on the trailer wheels. If the trialer was 50' long very little would be.

So if you have a 23' Airstream and a 34' Airstream with the same hitch weight and you transfer the same amount to the front axle of the tow vehicle you will transfer about 100 pounds more to the 23's suspension than you would the 34's.

If that makes sense to anyone.

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Old 11-22-2012, 08:30 AM   #1015
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The amount of weight transfered to the trailer wheels is a function of the tow vehicle wheel base, rear overhang and the distance from the ball to the trailer's wheels. If you think of it in the extreme sometimes it is easier to see.

If you had trailer 5' long with 1000 pounds of hitch weight and equalized it on a long pick up almost all of the hitch weight would be on the trailer wheels. If the trialer was 50' long very little would be.

So if you have a 23' Airstream and a 34' Airstream with the same hitch weight and you transfer the same amount to the front axle of the tow vehicle you will transfer about 100 pounds more to the 23's suspension than you would the 34's.

If that makes sense to anyone.

Andrew T
Yes, Andrew, that does make sense. It's like the trailer is the lever, and a longer lever will perform a given amount of work easier. The shorter lever takes more force to do the same amount of work, or in this case, lift a given amount of weight.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:06 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
However, I have always heard it stated by many hitch "guru's", and this going back some 36+ years I have been using them, that a properly adjusted WD hitch will add 1/3 (or 33%) of the tongue weight back onto the trailer's axles. The MOST weight that Bruce's chart shows added to the trailer's axles is 80 pounds, or 20% of the trailer's 400 pound tongue weight.
This can best be summed up as urban legend or a wives tail. Consider the facts that there are different trailer lengths, different TV wheelbases, and different spring ratios on the rigs you can quickly see from you old see-saw days that a single ration could not be possible. Shorter trailers will receive a higher portion of the transferred weight as longer trailers will receive a lesser portion. The same holds true for the TV.

What the WD hitch, independent of sway control, is designed to provide is a configuration that produces a safe driving condition as close to the original vehicle setup as possible. Sway control is a second function often, but not always, designed into a WD hitch. When these functions are combined and the rig configuration is factored in you are working with a unique set of variables relating to that TV trailer combination. Singularly defined standards can't be applied but rather are GUIDE LINE at best.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:16 AM   #1017
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Howie, move the ball mount in your drop bar down a notch to quiet these folks.

doug k
That might be considered Cheating. That might cause me to be running tongue light and thus make it easier to transfer weight to the front axle of the TV.

As I mentioned my recent scale trip was after Field Adjustments because I had had other issues that I had been working on since the last set up of the hitch. Thus an eyeball setting.

I plan to do a (from scratch fender measurement set up) soon and then go directly to the scales to have a direct comparison.

In the mean time let them chow on Joe's scale records. We don't want to overwhelm them for too many fact at once. Opinions are had to change even for great minds.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:33 AM   #1018
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See post 1031 and 1034 on previous page.

Quote:
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Hi Joe

Can you post the post number for your scale reports. The Nay Sayers will not take the time to look them up because they have an Opinion Already.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:19 AM   #1019
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We have taken this to a higher level than just engineering. We are now speaking in metaphors. Those posting from now on will have to include their curriculum vitae in order to imply credibility. Oh well that leaves me out as I only have a degree from the School of Hard Knocks at the University of Uncoming Coming Up The Hard Way having finished at the top of the class.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:07 PM   #1020
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Quote:
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Sean,
Please take a look at my scale posts for the Hensley and the Andersen and tell me what you think the numbers should be. I have adjustments left in the Andersen and had more adjustment left in the Hensley. Using these numbers, what would the perfect numbers be if I installed a PP ? Is that a fair question?
Regards,
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Well, you aren't really comparing apples to apples. (metaphor intended) (Is that a metaphor?) (BSCE, MBA)

There is 780 more pounds on the truck with the Arrow than with the Anderson and yet you still returned the steer axle to a weight closer to it's unloaded weight.

I think your Anderson numbers need more weight on the front axle.

Can't begin to guess for the ProPride but it would be closer to your Arrow numbers. With the load equal to your Anderson load it would easily return the front axle to its unloaded weight.


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