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Old 06-17-2013, 04:46 PM   #1981
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Good Advice. All engineers use and trust Physics.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:48 PM   #1982
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Just go back to "See Saw 101" and think about it for a while. What happens at the trailer axles if ALL of the tongue weight is moved to the TV regardless of in what ratio. What was the point of force application that would produce that result?
What happens at the trailer axles is that the trailer axles carry, on average, about 87% of the trailer's GVW and the remainder, known as "tongue weight", is moved to the TV when the coupler is on the ball and the tongue jack is retracted.

This happens many times every day all across the country and is called towing with no weight distriution.
Of course the axle loading would be about -45% of tongue weight on the TV's front axle and +145% on the rear -- but you did say "regardless of in what ratio".

Now, at risk of bringing the axle load distribution debate to a premature end,
if you would do an airforums.com search using Andy's username and keywords "front rear equal 10%",
I think you would find that Andy actually is advocating adjusting a WDH so the TV's front and rear gross axle loads are equal (within 10%).

If you can get the current debate settled, then you can move on to more pressing matters such as doing an internet search to see if you can find any support for claiming it was proven and accepted via "theoretical investigation" that a bumble bee can't fly.

Ron
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:48 PM   #1983
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Good Advice. All engineers use and trust Physics.
Yes they do, but the ones paid by an auto manufacturer have an agenda, just like a salesman.
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Old 06-17-2013, 04:59 PM   #1984
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General Motors and Ford have been in business for over 100 years and have thousands of engineers. I guess you bought the wrong truck to match with the Andersen hitch.
GM has been in business for over 100 years and its only for the last 1 or 2 years that they've said you can use 50% for some of their trucks under some conditions.

Does that mean GM got it wrong for more than 98-99% of the time they've been in business?

And they still specify 100% elimination of front-end rise for Tahoe/Suburbans and their GM counterparts, including the 2500 models.

Perhaps GW really isn't sure which way it should be?

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Old 06-17-2013, 05:15 PM   #1985
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Never have been a big fan of fuzzy math. I think I will put my faith in the real experts at Ford.
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:09 PM   #1986
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it seems Inland Andy has more than one standard, and if you want to abide by his teachings, which one should you go by?
Steve.

I don't have any standards, BUT I do have srveral years of first hand experience of finding out and "PROVING" why people lose control of the trailer, and why they tear the trailer to pieces.

I choose to share that with people who apprecited the sharing of knowledge.

But, as always, there are those that want to share an opinion, and pound on it often enough, so as to try to make some folks believers.

I have stayed out of the Andreson thread, but sit back and laugh at some of the comments.

Steve, you certainly have stated which band wagon your riding, and as such, I have no comment.

I know a Reese, and as such know what it will and will not do, period.

Yes, I sell them, about one every two years, as I am no longer in the hitch business and have not been for a few years.

But, I doubt that would change some opinions.

Andy
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:07 PM   #1987
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GM has been in business for over 100 years and its only for the last 1 or 2 years that they've said you can use 50% for some of their trucks under some conditions.

...snip...
Ron
They say 0% for 1500 series trucks up to 7,000 pounds and 0% for 2500/3500 series trucks up to 18,000 pounds. That represents a lot of cases. Not sure why the 50% figure is the only one mentioned. NOT SUV's or sedans, but pickups.

I would assume that they have learned something in recent years to change their requirements, as hard as that is to believe.
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:54 PM   #1988
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Originally Posted by Ron Gratz View Post
What happens at the trailer axles is that the trailer axles carry, on average, about 87% of the trailer's GVW and the remainder, known as "tongue weight", is moved to the TV when the coupler is on the ball and the tongue jack is retracted.
Ron

I am not going to try to explain it to you but would suggest you look at any of the scale tickets that have been posted, regardless if they transfer as much weight as some are requesting, and note the trailer axle weight once the WD hitch is applied. No one has or ever will design a mechanism that will transfer 100% of the tongue weight to the TV.

For those that may have a question. The force that applies weigh to the front axle of the TV has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is the rear axles of the trailer. The more you attempt to place on the front axles of the TV the more that will be placed on the trailer axles. All a WD hitch does is reduce the weight on the rear axle of the TV by placing it somewhere else
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:01 PM   #1989
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Yes they do, but the ones paid by an auto manufacturer have an agenda, just like a salesman.
You are right, I'm glad that you are suspicious of auto maker claims of performance and safety, we all should be. Past examples of their products have made us that way.(pinto, explorer, bronco, gm pickup's side mounted gas tanks, ...the list goes on). But to Manufacturers defense, they have made great strides in safety and durability in recent years. I believe in American Products.
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:30 PM   #1990
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Originally Posted by Ron Gratz View Post
GM has been in business for over 100 years and its only for the last 1 or 2 years that they've said you can use 50% for some of their trucks under some conditions.

Does that mean GM got it wrong for more than 98-99% of the time they've been in business?

And they still specify 100% elimination of front-end rise for Tahoe/Suburbans and their GM counterparts, including the 2500 models.

Perhaps GW really isn't sure which way it should be?

Ron
Your logic assumes that general technology and material strength technology has not improved or advanced in the last 100 years.
Telegraph vs. Internet. Which one do you prefer?
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:57 PM   #1991
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I am not going to try to explain it to you but would suggest you look at any of the scale tickets that have been posted, regardless if they transfer as much weight as some are requesting, and note the trailer axle weight once the WD hitch is applied. No one has or ever will design a mechanism that will transfer 100% of the tongue weight to the TV.
I think there is confusion between transfer to the TV and removal from the TV.

As I said in my previous post, the way you transfer tongue weight to the TV is to place the coupler on the ball and retract the tongue jack.
That simple process will transfer 100% of the tongue weight to the TV. Nobody needs to design a "mechanism" to do it. The "mechanism" is the coupler and ball.

I have looked at and analyzed dozens of scale tickets. On every set of axle weights, when WD is applied, the weight on the TV's axles decreases and the weight on the TT's axles increases.
This means that application of WD causes load to be removed from the TV. It does not mean that WD causes load to be added to the TV.

The TV starts out carrying 100% of the tongue weight, and will end up carrying less than 100% after WD is applied.

Ron
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:43 PM   #1992
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Your logic assumes that general technology and material strength technology has not improved or advanced in the last 100 years.
I doubt GM/Chevrolet's partial change of their specifications for WDH adjustment has anything to do with the fact that they've been in business for more than 100 years.

Ron
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:21 AM   #1993
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I doubt GM/Chevrolet's partial change of their specifications for WDH adjustment has anything to do with the fact that they've been in business for more than 100 years.

Ron


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Old 06-18-2013, 08:36 AM   #1994
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The TV starts out carrying 100% of the tongue weight, and will end up carrying less than 100% after WD is applied.

Ron
Now you got it
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:50 AM   #1995
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Now you got it
A properly rated load equalizing hitch, properly installed, and properly adjusted, will transfer 1/3 of the tongue weight back to the axle/axles, and 2/3 of the tongue weight to the tow vehicle, and when perfectly done, that 2/3 will be placed equally on the 4 wheels of the tow vehicle.

However, this will not apply to what I consider "out of bounds" tow vehicles, such as super heavy duty, dually's and 4 X 4's.

All too many times, tow vehicles are used to tow an Airstream, that could also tow the Queen Mary. And it's usually those that gripe about the rough ride as well as the bad fuel ecomony.

Cars for many years did just fine.

But to some, heavy duty trucks or their equal is the only game in town.

What a waste.

Andy
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:03 AM   #1996
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Not many reasonably priced sedans capable of towing are available today. That may be a waste, but it was what created a big demand for WD hitches. Modern pickups are front end heavy and built to haul some weight on the rear axle. Distributing 200 pounds to all four wheels is not necessary like it was with Grandpa's Buick.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:06 AM   #1997
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Not many reasonably priced sedans capable of towing are available today. That may be a waste, but it was what created a big demand for WD hitches. Modern pickups are front end heavy and built to haul some weight on the rear axle. Distributing 200 pounds to all four wheels is not necessary like it was with Grandpa's Buick.
The suggestion by one new truck manufacturer that returning their new truck to half it's front unloaded distance measurement does not create a new towing standard, especially if you're looking for optimum handling of the tow vehicle under all conditions.

My experience with the Andersen was like swimming against the current, always something until I no longer trusted it. I worried about its safety. When they decided I needed to cut the coupler off my new Airstream and weld on a new one to use this contraption, that was the last straw. It's gone.

It is a mystery to me why this experimental contraption is recommended to others. Andersen needs to fix it, not us.

doug k
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:15 AM   #1998
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I have been looking at different couplers. The bulldog is longer than most. Also is the atwood that is causing problems a wedge hitch? I see some of the more expensive couplers are wedge models. My airstream is a 72 and no id on what brand of coupler on it. Thanks
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:45 AM   #1999
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Doug, still trying to figure out what actual problems you have had with the Andersen WD system. Seems all your concerns are based on issues a few others have posted about. There are many users here and other forums that are very pleased with their Andersen WD systems.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:48 AM   #2000
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"The suggestion by one new truck manufacturer that returning their new truck to half it's front unloaded distance measurement does not create a new towing standard, ........"

Both Ford and GM have revised their requirements for front axle replacement downward by at least half. They may know as much as you about designing vehicles. The two companies are usually at or near the front with engineering expertise. Are we going to see a "dougmobile soon?
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