Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-26-2005, 11:32 AM   #15
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
I sincerely hope you would chose to be in the larger group. Your personal thoughts don't matter, if someone takes you to court for being negligent in a towing accident. You "WILL" lose.
Again, please pass along citations. The implication is that lawsuits have been decided on this basis (negligence strictly due to lack of load leveling and sway control without regard for other factors) and precedent established. I haven't seen or heard of any such decisions nor have I seen or heard of the kinds of behaviors that usually result from such legal decisions. (the implact on dealers would be very interesting, I think)

I'd also like to see the data on this 'larger group' as the observations I have made based on a subset that may be biased does not support that measure.

I am looking for data. Please help. I agree that personal thoughts or opinions, yours or mine, "don't matter" and that is why data is needed so that thoughts can be better founded and others can deal with something solid for their thoughts.
__________________

__________________
bryanl is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 11:54 AM   #16
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Leipper.

Bryan.

Instead of finding fault with the majority, I have a suggestion that may be of some help to you.

Take your rig to a truck scale.

Have them measure the weight (while hooked up) of the front axle and rear axle of your tow vehicle. Next, measure the trailer axles.

Next, disconnect the trailer, and measure the tongue weight.

Next, remeasure the front and rear axle weights of your tow vehicle.

Now sit down with those number and you will clearly see, for yourself, of what is and what is not acceptable.

Demanding proof, as you put it, is not quite the issue here.

What is the issue, is that you are a non-believer, which is your choice.

Therefore, do the homework, and get back to the rest of us, your "proof" that all us us are wrong.

I think that in fairness, considerable effort should be expened by you, that clearly shows all of use, that we are wrong.

I provided data, that I helped obtain 35 years ago. If you wish to partake great, if not, that's you choice.

I do not have to provide documentation to anyone for anything. If you wish to accept it, great, if not, I appologize for trying to keep you from hurting yourself, your family and others, however innocent, that may suffer because of your disbeliefs.

Common sense, doesn't require a publication, but it does require sincere, "SAFE" thinking.

Again, that choice is up to the individual.

Andy
__________________

__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 12:36 PM   #17
Aluminut
 
Silvertwinkie's Avatar
 
2004 25' Safari
. , Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,334
You know ignorance is bliss and some folks just like to argue. If one were to say, youíd get hurt jumping off the Sears Tower without anything but yourself (no gear), some folks would argue the laws of probability that one might survive such a stuntÖ. In the end, the odds are that if you do something unsafe or stupid, you WILL be a statistic. I saw one such statistic on the way home from the Midwest Rally this past July. After seeing it, I went and bought a truck to tow our Safari, it was that horrific (mostly because our 25í coach was too big for our sedanóthe wind would blow and push us around LOTS as the coach had the sedan by about 1000lbs).

I arrived on the scene only minutes after it had happened and had our fire extinguisher out and also tried to help the folks along with a few other good samaritans. Here was a guy that had an S-10 Blazer, the small 2 door with the V-6, towing a 25í SOB. His truck flipped, the coach was in the middle grassy area. The older couple were badly injured, but standing, one out the rear passenger window, the other out the front passenger window in total shock as the Blazer was resting on itís driverís side and they were bleeding very badly. The dog appeared to be traveling in the coach at the time, and was running down I-75 southbound. The coach was utterly destroyed beyond any type of repair with their stuff scattered everywhere.

As the police arrived, I had noticed one very interesting bit, besides his wheelbase was not sufficient for such a large coach, the guy had no weight bars and no sway control. He basically just had it hitched up and the safety chains were ripped apart like one would break a pencil in their hand.

Now am I saying he could have avoided the accident if he followed the written and unwritten rules of towing? No, but the folks that saw it happen, said that they guy appeared to hit his brakes, jerked the wheel (possible blowout) the coach pulled one direction and took the Blazer on a ride of itís own. Now Iím not a physics major, but I would think that hitting the brakes with the proper gear at the hitch would have helped prevent the coach from taking control of the tow vehicle, not to even mention the coach was too large for such a high center of gravity, short wheelbase tow vehicle. Perhaps a bit more clam behind the wheel too might have helped.

Bottom line is that stupid is as stupid does, in this example, the older couple was lucky to be alive IMHO. Their pet, who knows what happened, but this will be a vacation that they will soon not forgetÖ..I am happy that no one else was hurt as a result of this manís total caveman stupidity. We have had blowouts in our RVing lives both on the coach and tow vehicles, it can happen, even if you keep everything maintained. So far, both times itís happened, itís been on the expressway and we had full control of the situation. I think in part to a number of things. First, being calm behind the wheel. Second, having the proper tow vehicle and third, having the proper equipment connecting the RV to the tow vehicle.

As I see it, folks have a fair investment in coach and tow vehicle. If one could say that you could even marginally get a better saftey level (which we all know it's a heck of a lot more than marginally better), isn't your behind worth the few extra bucks? I say to those that argue against it, go for it and let Darwinism weed you out.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Silvertwinkie is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 01:45 PM   #18
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
"Take your rig to a truck scale. "

Been there, done that, analyzed the results, found that different rigs have different needs and that one solution does not fit all. Its good advice you have, Andy, and something that every RVer needs to do to make sure they have their loads within spec and properly distributed.

"Demanding proof, as you put it, is not quite the issue here."

not been there, not doing that, but the assertion illustrates the problem when what is said is not what is being read. There also seems to be a misunderstanding of goals. Let's all assume we are after a safe RV experience and use that to try to understand each other.

Andy, I am glad you have data, even 35 years old data and would most appreciate a citation or reference to it so it could be used effectively. I am curious to know why your data is not used by dealers, DOT's, or insurance companies as that is a dissonance worthy of understanding. We all might be able to learn something important if we could understand why the data is not reflected by these agencies and groups in terms of insurance fees, laws, and mandantory equipment sales.

"Common sense, doesn't require a publication, but it does require sincere, "SAFE" thinking."

Definitely agree on this one. My idea of SAFE thinking is understanding what is going on and the limits and tradeoffs inherent in any choice and then using that knowledge to make good decisions for circumstances.

"You know ignorance is bliss and some folks just like to argue."

Well illustrated here, I think. Can't even get agreement with the words and sentences in the posts of the threads! Maybe a deep breath, some careful reading, and a bit of temperance would help? An assumption that we are all after the same goal might help, too.

"No, but the folks that saw it happen, said that they guy appeared to hit his brakes, jerked the wheel (possible blowout) the coach pulled one direction and took the Blazer on a ride of itís own."

A sudden maneuver ("jerk the wheel") is an invitation to disaster no matter how you are rigged and no amount of money spent on the rig is going to overcome such driver problems. One of the big concerns I have is that some people believe they can buy their way out of such problems and, as a result, don't spend their efforts on becoming better drivers.

I am sorry to be in the middle of this attack scenario and uncomfortable discussion. There is a lot we can learn if we can get out of this bash'em and trash'em mode. There are good questions to be answered if questions can be taken as constructive rather than critical and ideas and opinions as attempting to broaden an outlook rather than deny it.
__________________
bryanl is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 02:49 PM   #19
Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
 
Inland RV Center, In's Avatar
 
Corona , California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,499
Images: 1
Leipper

From the fall of 1969 to the fall of 1973, I was the only field employee that Caravanner Insurance Company had.

It was my job, amoung other things, to investigate accidents specifically involving Airstream trailers.

It was also a part of my job, to find out why some owners lost control of their vehicles, "AND PROVE IT."

This was done with extreme caution as dictated by the Airstream factory. They, along with others, basically said, it can't be proven.

After some exhaustive studies, along with the "PROOF," they then agreed that a reason or reasons can, very easily be determined as to why someone lost control.

Reese hitch top management at that time were aware of the studies, and agreed, that depending on how someone was rigged, a prediction could be made as to the likelyhood of them becoming a statistic.

Part of the reason that this study was done, was to determine if a pre-insured questionnaier might be the thing to do, in an effort to eliminate at least some of the total losses caused by loss of control.

At that time, it was deemed "lets wait and see" and hold off.

The data was there, and was more than adequately proven to be correct.

From this data, we could place a given rig in one of two categories. The first, was little risk, and the other was maximum risk. Some thought was given to charging a much larger premium for those in the highest risk category.

However, Airstream did not want to implement that program at that time.

Caravanner Insurance was later sold to a much different interest.

All of the research data that Caravanner had, was destroyed. However, that did not destroy the facts that were and still are in my brain, and in my personal data books.

Therefore, none of that information was submitted to any other insurance company or any other interests.

The point of me taking the time, away from several other important tasks, is to try and answer your questions, in detail.

There will be further articles in Airstream Life Magazine that will further delve in some of the whys and wherefores of hitches.

I suggest that you ponder these comments and information, and then set out to do your own research, at your expense, and report it back to this group as I have.

We then, as a community, will have the same right to poo poo your information, and throw out questions that contain little merit, as you have done to mine, and others as well.

I take some time to help those that have chosen to be helped. Some don't need any help, usually in their opinion, because they have towed way past the edge for years, and have gotten away with it.

So be it.

It's their choice, just as it is yours.

To argue, has no merit. To present data, and explain the parameters and conditions as I have, does contain merit.

Please let us all know the findings of your research.

I will not spend another second, answering your questions, on this subject, as it appears that my answers have little value to you.

Fortunately, the vast majority are on the same side of the fence that I am on, which happens to be different than your side.

How sad, for you.

How happy, for them.

Andy
__________________
Inland RV Center, In is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 03:44 PM   #20
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
I suggest that you ponder these comments and information, and then set out to do your own research, at your expense, and report it back to this group as I have.

We then, as a community, will have the same right to poo poo your information, and throw out questions that contain little merit, as you have done to mine, and others as well.
...
How sad, for you.
I really don't think the ad hominem and threats and challenges help anyone.

As far as proof and my own research and all that, I am really wondering what is being read into my posts. What I am looking for is an answer to some very simple questions, not expounding an unfounded hypothesis. I have offered no information to "poo poo" nor have I done such a thing to anyone else's information. I am trying to make sense of my own experience in light of assertions such as you have made. When things don't fit, I want to know why.

If indeed there is "proof" that every trailer and tow vehicle is at significant risk unless they have both sway control and load leveling devices, then
1) why isn't this reflected in insurance premiums?
2) why isn't this reflected in law like chains and brakes?
3) why aren't dealers required to install such devices?

I am looking for answers. I seek data. And no, I don't find "I told you so" sufficient because I want to know why and how come. I am also curious as to why these questions are of little merit in your view as money and law are generally not insignificant factors in how we behave on the road. I also would like to know why an emphasis on the driver is also denigrated.

At any rate, thanks for making it clear exactly where you stand and how your views are to be understood. The approach and the logic and the rationale should help anyone seeking to make an intelligent decision, if that is what they choose to do.
__________________
bryanl is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 06:00 PM   #21
Rivet Master
 
59toaster's Avatar
 
1959 22' Caravanner
Atlanta , Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,197
Images: 22
Leipper:

By your thinking analyze these two real scenarios that I personally have been involved in.

Would a full size Blazer that tips the scales at 6400 lb need sway control pulling a 5x8 utility trailer weighing about 2500lb?


Would a full size Ford E150 conversion van with a 5.4 v8 need it to pull a 22ft Caravanner that weights about 3200lb?

















The answer is yes on both accounts. After towing that cargo trailer for about 80 miles I hit a weird wave in the road in a sweeper turn at about 65mph. It damn near put me on the roof. The trailer was bouncing off the ground 3-4 feet as it danced from one wheel to the other.

There was a design flaws in the trailer and there were issues with the blazer having highly modified suspension that allowed it to drive over small cars (I have pictures if you need proof ) The combination nearly proved lethal and it took 80 miles of steady driving to cause it to happen.

the Van:

We inherited the Airstream you see in my avatar from my Wifes father when he passed. At the time I did not own anything but that Blazer to pull with and I sure wasn't going to pull it with that after the fun with a smaller and lighter trailer not to mention no way I could get the coach to sit level.

I did have access to the van that my Father-in-law had set up to pull that coach. I had the friction sway. I had the weight distribution bars. Problem was we could not find Trunnion assembly. I had never even laid eyes on this camper. The entire time my wife and I were together the camper was at a camp ground where her dad used it and stored it.

We had only one day to move it before that van was going 600 miles away for good with my wifes Brother. I brought a 2 inch ball and crossed my fingers the hitch equipment was in the camper. The trunnion was not in the camper. It was the most white knuckle drive ever. 45mph was as fast as we could go safely. Ended up taking surface streets . I towed that same coach with the WD hitch and it was totally docile.


While you have not had a problem, yet, the issue is it is too late if you do have the problem unexpectedly. At that point it is too late. If you manage not to total your vehicle and injure anybody, awesome. If it does happen and its bad, coach and TV totaled, people hurt and you could have done something to help prevent it but didn't, how are you going to feel? We are talking $200-300 worth of equipment that you might never get in a situation that it will ever do anything.

The problem is what if you do need it?


You are going to be hard pressed to find anybody on this site to side with you on this one. I have learned so much form this forum and contributors, like Andy, that I am really surprised I haven't managed to kill myself or somebody else with some of the cobbed together junk I have towed over the years.

I would love to say Ehhh its your problem but the fact of the matter is you might take somebody else out with you if something does go wrong. That I cant condone and why I again make comment again.

I'm done as well. Its up to you to do some soul searching and make a decision. I hope that you can error on the side of safety with the rest of us. Its just not something worth playing the odds on. The money is not much when you concider how much it could save if you do not beat the odds.
__________________
1959 22' Caravanner
1988 R20 454 Suburban.
Atlanta, GA
59toaster is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 06:50 PM   #22
Site Team
 
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,940
Images: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by 59toaster
Leipper:

You are going to be hard pressed to find anybody on this site to side with you on this one. I have learned so much form this forum and contributors, like Andy, that I am really surprised I haven't managed to kill myself or somebody else with some of the cobbed together junk I have towed over the years.
Well, I certainly side with Bryan. Just because he questioned some of the assumptions, data, and whether any of the results were statistically valid; doesn't mean that Bryan is a cowboy recommending everyone ride bareback into the night.

And the ad hominem thing really bothered me.
__________________
markdoane is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 06:55 PM   #23
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2
I have a '03 25' Safari behind a 01 Toyota Tundra. My freind, a guy who tows a variety of trailers, heavy weight, behind a variety of vehicles, followed me on my maiden voyage. He said the trailer "tracked perfectly" and wouldn't need the sway control (Reese fricion). While I value his opinion, I still use it and will continue to use it based on previous posts (liabilty reasons).
Great website,
Buggs
__________________
Buggs
Buggs is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 08:14 PM   #24
Well Preserved

 
1993 21' Sovereign
Colfax , North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 20,190
Probably more than 95% of the time you will not need sway control, but that other 5% will be when you HAVE to have it. And you won't be able to hit the "Pause" button, and go install it.
If someone wishes to go without WD and sway control of some sort, that is their business, but Murphy's Law says that if/when that person loses control of their rig and crashes, it will probably be into a school bus full of kids, or a truck hauling nitroglycerin .
Terry
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
overlander63 is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 08:53 PM   #25
Aluminut
 
Silvertwinkie's Avatar
 
2004 25' Safari
. , Illinois
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,334
The beauty of having an ignore list is that one never gets to view folks that we feel are totally baseless and worthless. Without naming any names here, I'll simply say again that ignorance is bliss and Darwinism will conquer all.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Silvertwinkie is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 08:53 PM   #26
2 Rivet Member
 
ardenrj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 66
Wow I didn't realize this was such a touchy issue when I started this thread. I would never pull my Bambi without a wd system and sway control. My question was really is the sway contrl bar I use good enough for the 19'Bambi or should I go to the dual cam system. My other question was since my truck outweighs the trailer and has a long wheel base does that decreas sway thus making the sway control bar enough deterrent to decrease sway. Thanks for the replys
__________________
ardenrj is offline  
Old 01-26-2005, 11:24 PM   #27
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardenrj
is the sway contrl bar I use good enough for the 19'Bambi or should I go to the dual cam system. My other question was since my truck outweighs the trailer and has a long wheel base does that decreas sway thus making the sway control bar enough deterrent to decrease sway. Thanks for the replys
If you can drive without a 'white knuckle' experience, your existing sway control is probably sufficient. Your rig should drive stable at speed even with wind gusts and big rigs passing close to hand.

The long wheelbase should help improve handling but it is coupled with the overhang leverage. A long ball to differential distance counteracts the wheelbase as it gives the trailer more leverage on the truck.

The weight advantage of the truck is an asset as it makes it more difficult for the trailer to push it around.

There are a lot of other factors that must be taken into account as well, tire type and pressures and load distribution being big ones, to obtain a comfortable and safe driving experience with your rig.

And don't hassle the 'interesting dialog' - that only tells you how important the topic is to some folks and how much they need to learn! ;-)
__________________
bryanl is offline  
Old 02-12-2005, 03:29 PM   #28
Rivet Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,183
Holy cow!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
Again, please pass along citations. The implication is that lawsuits have been decided on this basis (negligence strictly due to lack of load leveling and sway control without regard for other factors) and precedent established. I haven't seen or heard of any such decisions nor have I seen or heard of the kinds of behaviors that usually result from such legal decisions. (the implact on dealers would be very interesting, I think)

I'd also like to see the data on this 'larger group' as the observations I have made based on a subset that may be biased does not support that measure.

I am looking for data. Please help. I agree that personal thoughts or opinions, yours or mine, "don't matter" and that is why data is needed so that thoughts can be better founded and others can deal with something solid for their thoughts.
We are all on the Internet. If you want the proof, go look for it. You will either find something that supports Andy or you will find something that supports you.
I think the point Andy is making is that it is better to err on the side of caution.
I tow a 20 foot Minuet. It weighs 2,400lbs. dry. I pull it with a GMC Safari AWD. Do I need load levelling? Do I need sway control? I would not know. I have only towed with the torsion bars and sway bar in place.
My father has towed A/S's since 1965. He would never pull out of the driveway without weight distribution and sway control in place. He remembers the days that they did not have all of that good stuff.
Better safe than sorry.
__________________

__________________
Anon is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Skylight part question ColtSAA45 Roof Vents, Skylights & Fans 3 04-22-2004 09:05 PM
Floor support question jeanarlene Repairing/Replacing Floor &/or Frame 1 10-11-2002 11:26 AM
Battery Dead/Power jack question jcanavera Jacks, Stabilizers, Lifting and Leveling 34 08-16-2002 02:51 PM
Tire sizing question casarodante Tires 5 07-02-2002 11:19 PM
Hello from new Forumee - and a question about front shocks on my 1989 345LE williamhenshall Mechanics Corner - Engines, Transmission & More... 12 04-14-2002 11:13 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.