Sway control for ice?

[seeleylaker]

Looking for advice from anyone with experience using sway control in winter conditions. I'm leaving next week to pick up a 26' Overlander and there is currently at least 500 miles of snow packed and icy interstate between here and there. Tow vehicle is a 4wd Tundra double cab (wheelbase 145.7).

I've pulled a 18' Caravel in all kinds of conditions with an old Chevy Blazer and never had sway control. Never had a problem. However, I don't know where the line is with respect to wheelbase and trailer length and the need for sway control. It seems like the sway control might be a real help on icy roads-but I don't know for sure.

My hitch is a Curt with 600lb round bars and is drilled for a friction sway control. Should I take a sway control with me and install it before returning?

Any comments apppreciated.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by seeleylaker

Looking for advice from anyone with experience using sway control in winter conditions. I'm leaving next week to pick up a 26' Overlander and there is currently at least 500 miles of snow packed and icy interstate between here and there. Tow vehicle is a 4wd Tundra double cab (wheelbase 145.7).

I've pulled a 18' Caravel in all kinds of conditions with an old Chevy Blazer and never had sway control. Never had a problem. However, I don't know where the line is with respect to wheelbase and trailer length and the need for sway control. It seems like the sway control might be a real help on icy roads-but I don't know for sure.

My hitch is a Curt with 600lb round bars and is drilled for a friction sway control. Should I take a sway control with me and install it before returning?

Any comments apppreciated.

Years ago, all the manufacturers of friction type sway controls, stated in VERY SMALL print, to disconnect the friction sway control, when towing, during bad weather conditions.

They have all removed that statement from their instructions.

Bad weather has not changed.

Physics has not changed.

Not being totally honest, sometimes, with consumers, is now to many, very acceptable.

A friction type sway control, WILL cause a loss of control accident, during bad weather conditions, when towing.

WHY????

That devise has no idea if your in a straight line, or not.

For your sake and your families sake, leave the friction sway control, inside the trailer, during those bad weather towing times.

Andy
They don't

[Toothpuller]

I towed a 25' Trade Wind from New Hampshire to Ohio down 95, 87, 81, across 70 and 68 in February 08'. Those interstates have some terrible winter conditions. Did not use sway control and would not recommend in the slippery road conditions that I saw and in the conditions you are about to go through. Having a good brake control and sensible driving is most important. I had a Tundra then, I have since moved to more truck for power/cargo/tow capacity reasons. Good luck. Drink lots of coffee and stay wide-awake.

[CanoeStream]

Size of your tow vehicle will make no difference.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...one-27195.html

We all have some experience of decent stretches in the winter more or less. I'd only feel secure towing in real good periods of winter weather. And with nothing less than a Hensley.

Towing in weather is the same as flying a private plane -- we all want to say we'll only do it when it is safe, but when you are pressed by schedule or days off one might proceed in spite of the best advice. I always say fly a U.S. flag carrier when you want no chances taken. Ask Roberto Clemente; ask Ricky Nelson; ask Lynyrd Skynrd. Exaggeration? Maybe a bit. Want us to be liable for any advice given? Might as well get rules to live by from pulp fiction or soap operas.

Be careful out there. Set reasonable distances to travel under very specific conditions. You may have to settle for taking days off or speeds that could significantly increase your travel time. So be it.

[85MH325]

As Andy says, a friction sway control doesn't know whether it's resisting the trailer moving out of the line or trying to move back into line. If it's out, it'll keep it there just as well as it tries to keep it behind your truck. Don't use one in slippery conditions.

Roger

[Action]

One word. SPEED! Keep it down.

>>>>.Action

[bryanl]

CHAINS

Do get a set of chains for one axle of the trailer and use them if there are any traction device controls mandated for the road. Do make sure the trailer brakes work properly.

Be prepared with an appropriate emergency kit - water, blankets, snacks, somebody knowing your schedule and location, etc.

The take it slow and easy and take care.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, I wouldn't purposely plan a trip in snow and ice, but I did get caught in the middle of a snow storm earlier this month. I drove very slow and causiously through mountain roads. [narrow winding, up and down roads] I have an Equal-i-zer brand hitch and made no changes to it during this situation. If I took my bars off, then my front end would become lighter and not safe at all. To me, [my opinion] the two vehicles tied together as one larger unit was probably better than just my tow vehicle alone. [more weight and eight brakes] I do think I would like to have, had tire chains for the rear of my tow vehicle and tire cables for the front wheels on my trailer, but I didn't. Number one most important thing is driver ability. This was my one and only experience on snow [while towing] and without insidents.

Note: This is not a recommendation for anyone else, just my personal experience.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, I wouldn't purposely plan a trip in snow and ice, but I did get caught in the middle of a snow storm earlier this month. I drove very slow and causiously through mountain roads. [narrow winding, up and down roads] I have an Equal-i-zer brand hitch and made no changes to it during this situation. If I took my bars off, then my front end would become lighter and not safe at all. To me, [my opinion] the two vehicles tied together as one larger unit was probably better than just my tow vehicle alone. [more weight and eight brakes] I do think I would like to have, had tire chains for the rear of my tow vehicle and tire cables for the front wheels on my trailer, but I didn't. Number one most important thing is driver ability. This was my one and only experience on snow [while towing] and without insidents.

Note: This is not a recommendation for anyone else, just my personal experience.

Keeping the torsion bars on, is still a "must do."

Removing a friction type sway control, when on ice or snow, and for that matter even on wet pavements, is an absolute "MUST."

A Reese dual cam sway control works properly in any type of weather or road conditions.

Andy

[Gene]

I have asked a similar question asking about suggestions for towing in snow. The answers were characterized by complete disagreement about what is best except for one thing—drive very slowly. That left me confused. We have escaped snow so far and in the shoulder seasons there are usually more clear days and roads between the snowy ones around here.

What Bob says—I have an Equalizer too—makes sense, and so does what Andy says. They are is disagreement. I'm still confused. It seems to me without the Equalizer, the trailer would be less stable and more likely to do something unplanned.

And then there's the question about how to use the brake controller—change the settings or not? I got completely different answers to that question too. Still confused.

Gene

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

I have asked a similar question asking about suggestions for towing in snow. The answers were characterized by complete disagreement about what is best except for one thing—drive very slowly. That left me confused. We have escaped snow so far and in the shoulder seasons there are usually more clear days and roads between the snowy ones around here.

What Bob says—I have an Equalizer too—makes sense, and so does what Andy says. They are is disagreement. I'm still confused. It seems to me without the Equalizer, the trailer would be less stable and more likely to do something unplanned.

And then there's the question about how to use the brake controller—change the settings or not? I got completely different answers to that question too. Still confused.

Gene

My information is based on accident reports and investigations.

The only thing you will hear that is consistant about Airstreams, is that the shell is made using Aluminum, at least most of the time.

Andy

[thecatsandi]

Originally Posted by seeleylaker

Looking for advice from anyone with experience using sway control in winter conditions. I'm leaving next week to pick up a 26' Overlander and there is currently at least 500 miles of snow packed and icy interstate between here and there. Tow vehicle is a 4wd Tundra double cab (wheelbase 145.7).

I've pulled a 18' Caravel in all kinds of conditions with an old Chevy Blazer and never had sway control. Never had a problem. However, I don't know where the line is with respect to wheelbase and trailer length and the need for sway control. It seems like the sway control might be a real help on icy roads-but I don't know for sure.

My hitch is a Curt with 600lb round bars and is drilled for a friction sway control. Should I take a sway control with me and install it before returning?

Any comments apppreciated.

Hey Seeley laker,
I am "just down the road" in Missoula.
Having towed in a significant amount of the time in the winter and having one black ice accident (see my website). I can only say the only effective way to travel icy roads is don't. Snow packed are passable if you can get traction. I am less worried about going up hill rather than down. I hate to have my trailer pass me. It has happened before still attached to my F-250. I have a Reese Dual Cam.

[Eric 28]

Thank You Andy. I have the Reese Dual Cam,F-250 4x4,7.3 diesel. We are leaving this coming week heading South. Knowing we will most likely hit snow some where along the way. Very happy to know to let the Dual Cam set just the way I do in good weather.

[Foiled Again]

I've avoided towing in snow or ice - of course living in coastal Virginia helps with that, but I have had a tow vehicle roadside tire blow out... and I've always kept my brake controller on the "grabby" side - so that I feel the trailer brakes pull a bit on my vehicle a half second before the truck brakes do. From pure common sense - my incident with the tire blowing out is that A) it happened on an uphill grade and B) the presence of the Airstream kept my Suburban from rolling. Had it been downhill, I would have had to rely on manually locking up the airstream brakes and using the Airstream acting as an anchor - to hold the tow vehicle in a straight line. Would that strategy worked on Ice? Well I would choose NOT to bet my life on it.

Towing on snow - possible. Tow slowly, tow only in full daylight, stick to main roads that get plowed frequently.

On ice? Park it! Pay to leave it in a STORAGE yard until the weather improves if you have to. There is NOTHING urgent enough to take that kind of risk. I'd rather be late than dead, I'd rather be fired from my job than dead. I don't even want to be the proud new owner of a rolled Airstream.

Take care out there. We all want to see more people enjoying their coaches.... safely.

Paula

[Gene]

Glad to hear Airstream shells are really aluminum (for the most part). That's something I can count on, Andy.

I lived in the Northeast for 37 years and have seen many an ice storm. I wouldn't tow a trailer then unless I had to—"unless I had to" is the unfortunate problem sometimes. "Black ice" is often touted in local TV newscasts as the most dangerous thing since a nuclear attack, but is simply melt water that freezes overnight on blacktop and is hard to see—that stuff is dangerous, but not too common compared to lumpy old ice and snowpack. None is fun, but I have driven many, many miles on it without an accident, but a trailer is a different animal.

When I bought the trailer, the salesman told me to turn down the brake controller to the minimum setting on snow, but that made no sense to me. It seemed the trailer would want to come around to meet me when I stopped or slowed because the trailer would be going faster than the truck. With all that pressure on one pivot point (the ball), it seems highly likely the trailer will change direction. If anything, it would seem to make sense to turn up the controller. I don't like grabbiness, so I set it just below that normally. Nonetheless, I don't want to lock the trailer brakes and unlike the truck (which has ABS, so they can't lock), I can't tell whether the trailer brakes lock. Of course, when stopping on anything slick, I try to do it as gently as possible, but that's where "unless I had to" comes in again. ABS creates an interesting question—it's not good to feather the brakes with ABS, but then how do you feather the trailer brakes? Using the manual control on the controller seems too hard to do as there no "feel" to it and on my truck the controller is too hard to get to in an emergency.

A similar issue about the pivot point seems to apply to whether to use the WD hitch. The bars on the Equalizer would seem to me to reduce the chance the trailer starts to swing out of line on a slick surface. This is in addition to the weight distribution part of the question as Bob points out in Post #8.

So there seem to be several things to think about: weight distribution, anti-sway devices, brake controllers. Oh, chains too. I figure if I need chains, stay where I am—if I can't get there with mud/snow tires and 4WD, stay where I am. I doubt a well tired 4WD TV would ever need chains unless towing was completely absurd. Maybe radial tire chains on the trailer does make sense. I have no clue about that.

Andy, I respect your extensive knowledge. However, I have to understand why something is better than another thing before I make a decision what is best for me; I'm sure you wouldn't have done so much research if you didn't have to understand how things work. So, I remain confused about the various factors involved here and how one affects the other. And, since whatever is on the roads can change dramatically as elevation and microclimates change, one makes sense for one section may make no sense for the next. Often enough, there's no place to get out and remove the operative parts of the WD hitch, so the actual solution may tend to be to just drive with what you've got and slow, slow down. For now, all this is academic since I'm not going anywhere for at least 3 months.

Gene

[Excella CM]

The biggest problem in this discussion is the number of variables. When you can't nail down the specifics, then towing in hazardous conditions is more of an art than a science. One obvious thing is that a friction sway control will work against you when traction diminishes. Having too aggressive a brake controller setting can break the combination loose when traction is minimal. It is always a judgment call to tow in adverse conditions. I suppose that to be absolutely safe you should never drive on roads narrower that the total length of the rig so that you will have room as the TV and trailer orbit about their center of mass if they brake completely loose . Also, when attempting to drive successfully in icy conditions, it is well to remember that many are chilled but few are frozen.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Eric 28

Thank You Andy. I have the Reese Dual Cam,F-250 4x4,7.3 diesel. We are leaving this coming week heading South. Knowing we will most likely hit snow some where along the way. Very happy to know to let the Dual Cam set just the way I do in good weather.

Your setup is fine, but only if you have 550 or 600 pound bars.

Anything more than that, is asking for damage to the trailer, and less than ideal handling.

Andy

[thecatsandi]

A little follow up to my previous post.
Before my trek east this year I bought a full set of chains for the truck and a "drag" set for the trailer. Last ditch emergency use only.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by thecatsandi

A little follow up to my previous post.
Before my trek east this year I bought a full set of chains for the truck and a "drag" set for the trailer. Last ditch emergency use only.

Bad weather towing should always remind us what the scouts preach.

"Be Prepared."

On the other hand, long term towing without problems, always contains a high degree of being prepared.

Defensive towing, is not hard to achieve, along with what to do and when to do it.

Things can happen, is very true.

But why some folks ask for it, I will never understand.

Andy

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

---To me, [my opinion] the two vehicles tied together as one larger unit was probably better than just my tow vehicle alone. [more weight and eight brakes] I do think I would like to have, had tire chains for the rear of my tow vehicle and tire cables for the front wheels on my trailer, but I didn't. Number one most important thing is driver ability. This was my one and only experience on snow [while towing] and without insidents.

I lived 100 miles north of Duluth, MN, for 11 years and spent most of those winters traveling in warmer climates. Sometimes, I left the northland too late or returned too early; and , although I tried hard to avoid towing on ice and/or snow, there were times when I didn't have the good sense to get off the road.

I was towing an Award (rather than an Airstream) and using a Reese friction-bar sway control (rather than an Equal-i-zer), but my experiences were similar to Robert's -- it seemed to me as though the two vehicles, with the sway control engaged, had better directional stability than just my tow vehicle alone. I would never have considered driving on snow and/or ice without the sway control engaged.

It always puzzles me why some believe that one type of friction-based sway control (such as a friction bar) must not be used in reduced-traction conditions while, at the same time, they believe another type of friction-based control (such as a Dual Cam) will work properly in any type conditions.

Both the friction bar and the DC control sway by "stiffening" the yaw-axis connection between TV and TT. The most commonly used bar is factory-adjusted to generate a torque of about 500 lb-ft. The DC can generate several times this amount, depending on how much load is applied to the rear ends of the WD bars. Therefore, if the friction bar is going to cause a steering problem, the problem should be magnified several fold when using a DC or an Equal-i-zer.

It might be interesting to try to apply some numbers to the steering "problem" caused by a friction bar. If the yaw-axis torque is 500 lb-ft and the TV's wheelbase is 10', then the TV's from tires must generate an extra 50# of lateral force (25#/tire) to overcome the SC-induced torque.

If the front axle is carrying 3000#, the tires must be turned an additional amount of about 0.15 degrees on dry pavement to generate an additional lateral force of 50#. Required increases in steering angle for other surface contitions might be: wet pavement = 0.2 degrees, packed snow and dry ice = 0.3 degrees, glare ice = 0.55 degrees.

With a Dual Cam, the additional steering angle required in order to initiate a turn might be 4-5 times a great as the above figures. Yes, there is some extra amount of "understeer" induced by the sway control. However, understeer is not a bad thing. Understeer does not lead to yaw instability as might be the case for oversteer.

My advice would be not to tow in icy conditions if it can be avoided. If you normally tow using a sway control and if you cannot avoid towing in icy conditions, then, in my opinion, it is better to leave the SC engaged and take it slow and easy.

Ron