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Old 01-14-2010, 12:51 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Ahzmyrah View Post
Don't know what year your F250 Ford is but in the owners manual for my 2005 it has a section about trailer towing and weights. Check out the difference your T/V manufacturer shows for allowed GVWR and tongue weight equalized and non-equalized. Your tongue weight alone is heavy than allowed unequalized.
Actually, the tongue weight of my 1971 Airstream is supposedly 455 lbs, and the total weight on the order of 4200 lbs. These are both well within the capacity of our 1996 w/o a weight equalizing hitch.

- Bart
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Old 01-14-2010, 05:59 AM   #30
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Swaying In Space...

The sway we occasionally experience will certainly warp our time/space continuum...If it gets bad enough, it may even End our time/space continuum. I wonder if we'll need anti-sway bars in space...
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:09 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by barts View Post
Actually, the tongue weight of my 1971 Airstream is supposedly 455 lbs, and the total weight on the order of 4200 lbs. These are both well within the capacity of our 1996 w/o a weight equalizing hitch.

- Bart
Bart,

I was VERY surprised the first time I weighed the tongue fully loaded for camping. An estimate of approximately 800lbs went to an actual of 1125lbs.

Be careful with guesstimates.

Stream Safe
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:42 AM   #32
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And for the new members or folks who have never experienced a severe sway event, this is casually known as 'truck suck' and is NOT a sway event; however, it can certainly initiate or trigger a sway event. Truck suck can be controlled, and is caused from a variety of factors; however I'd suggest that more tongue weight would limit that effect. I used to experience that with my 34' tri-axle and my Excursion. Once I installed both body anti-sway bars and radius rods on the Excursion, the phenomenon stopped; indicating that the rear axle steering of the Excursion was allowing the 'truck suck' to occur.

A sway event, OTOH, can be a phenomenon that causes you to lose control of your vehicle before you understand what's happening. It can happen VERY quickly, and when it does, you're usually just along for the ride. Don't confuse an occasional "wiggle" while going down the road with trailer sway.

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While reading about an accident in a recent thread, I had also
noticed concerning movements when 18 wheelers passed me
going in the same direction.
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:04 AM   #33
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Actually, the tongue weight of my 1971 Airstream is supposedly 455 lbs, and the total weight on the order of 4200 lbs. These are both well within the capacity of our 1996 w/o a weight equalizing hitch.

- Bart
Those weights, have absolutely nothing to do with sway, or sway control.

Those weights have to do with towing capacity of the TV, nothing more.

If you feel that sway control, is a myth, then I would love to watch what you would do on a teeter taughter, if you were on one end, and an 80 pound person was on the other end, starting off with the board centered. The other person would have no control.

Then, what would you do, if a 400 pound person was on the other end, with you at the opposite end. You would sort of feel helpless, since then, you would have zero control.

Same thing with sway control. Part of the weights "MUST" be redistributed. If not, then your asking, for trouble on a red carpet, and it "WILL" find you faster than you think.

What you are also disagreeing with, is the hundreds of thousands of owners, that totally disagree with you.

Tell your liability insurance company that you tow your Airstream, with total disregard for RV towing safety issues, and then see what they say.

Andy
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:28 AM   #34
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Were they tests on closed loops that had no public access? Were they trailers that typically have sway control on public roads (boat trailer vs. travel trailer)? Are we more litigious now that we were then?

If closed loops, then any injuries would have been covered by Worker's Comp and probably no lawsuits would have pursued. Just my guess.
The tests were and are on public highways as I stated in the referanced post. They are not a closed loop(we do those types of tests also). The trucks and trailers are loaded the same whether on the track or on the public open highway. We are currently still doing the same tests.
I have expereanced a severe sway event,I grossly misloaded a trailer very tongue light.I learned a lot from those few seconds of terror.And am gratefull to be alive through no skill of my own. Divine providence took care of me that day.
But back to the origanal questain, can anyone provide me with a documented case of loss of control due to sway with the original posters rig?A 1996 F250 7.3 DIT 4x4 crew cab ( that is four doors) pulling a properly loaded 4500# double axle trailer with 10-15% tongue weight. He wanted to know if he needs sway control, I contend he does not.
Adios, John
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:39 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by barts View Post
Actually, the tongue weight of my 1971 Airstream is supposedly 455 lbs, and the total weight on the order of 4200 lbs. These are both well within the capacity of our 1996 w/o a weight equalizing hitch.

- Bart


I don't think this post was about sway.

I read it as a w/d issue.

I DO confuse that occasional "wiggle" as sway, that's exactly what it is, whether caused by a semi, severe cross-wind, improper loading, lack of sufficient wd, tires, suspension issues, road joints, uneven shoulder or situational awareness.

In any case, whatever it's called, and whatever the cause, attempts to get rid of it must be successful.
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:43 AM   #36
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The title of the thread is sway control, and the OP talks about sway conrtrol in his first post. Adios, John
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:54 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by barts View Post
Actually, the tongue weight of my 1971 Airstream is supposedly 455 lbs, and the total weight on the order of 4200 lbs. These are both well within the capacity of our 1996 w/o a weight equalizing hitch.

- Bart
Yes... but I wasn't referring to the first post.

My bad, I thought this quote was about wd.
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:17 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Diesel1 View Post
But back to the origanal questain, can anyone provide me with a documented case of loss of control due to sway with the original posters rig?A 1996 F250 7.3 DIT 4x4 crew cab ( that is four doors) pulling a properly loaded 4500# double axle trailer with 10-15% tongue weight. He wanted to know if he needs sway control, I contend he does not.
Adios, John
Professional drivers/towers are very far removed from the general public.

But, proper rigging for "SAFE" towing, demands proper equipment.

Documentation of exact circumstances, is a cop out.

Physic is physics, you do not need documentation.

I ran into a guy, many years ago, that questioned "why do you need a parachute" just because you want to sky dive.

Same thing without at least a good sway control.

Want to ignore facts?? That's OK. But have all your passengers, sign a waiver, "FOR THEIR SAKE", not yours.

Being open minded about sway control, is a good thing.

Having a closed mind about sway control, is a bad thing.

Personally, I would not ride in someones TV, while they are towing, unless "PROPERLY" rigged.

Having investigated over 1000 loss of control accidents, while towing an Airstream, as I have, is not something to sneeze at, as some do.

There are so many things in life, that a select few, even college graduates, that think speeding is ok, drunk driving is ok, target shooting at people is ok, hey, they do that in Mexico several times each day, crossing a street against traffic and not in a crosswalk is ok, running bald tires is ok, an LPG leak is ok because it's a small one is ok, walking on glass is ok, and water too, the list goes on and on.

Foolish things humans do, in and with their lives, and how the sometimes place innocent people at risk, keeps undertakers busy even during bad economic times.

Today, many commercial airline pilots, show up for duty, while drunk. Hey who cares, the plane has an "auto pilot".
I wonder how many people out of one million, would knowingly fly in a plane, when piloted by a drunk????

Very very few, if any.

To me, towing a travel trailer, improperly rigged, is somewhat the same as driving when drunk. Something can and will happen, totally unexpected, that they will not be able to have complete control over.

Then, it's way to late, but the folks that sell those boxes, will still accept you, with open arms.

To not at least try a sway control, so that they can see and feel the difference, is fool hardy from the get go.

Andy
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:14 AM   #39
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Andy I am acually a fan of your years of wisdom and your business. I have bought a remarkable amount of parts from you and will continue to do so. That being said your line of reasoning means all old Airstreams and all old vehicles in generall should be scrapped or at least parked. Disc brakes, ABS brakes, electronic traction control,some people feel these should be manditory.
Just because a lot of people even "experts" say something does not make it true. I have no dought about your expertise, I do however quistion its correctness. Of the 1000 accidents in your experiance( your claim to expertness) how many are sway induced from a properly loaded trailer? That is not ducking the issue as you seem to feel. I have told you how I arrived at my opinion, Years of personal experiance (some good some bad),and the fact that at least one of the big three auto makers does not use sway control on any of their testing trailers. And no the drivers are not trained, a drivers license( CDL not required) and a DOT phsical to indicate that you might not have a heart attack. Several of the drivers as of three years ago were in their 70's.
Oh and thanks for the good debate I for one am thourghly enjoying it.
Adios, John
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Old 01-14-2010, 12:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
Professional drivers/towers are very far removed from the general public.
Being open minded about sway control, is a good thing.

Having a closed mind about sway control, is a bad thing.

Personally, I would not ride in someones TV, while they are towing, unless "PROPERLY" rigged.

To not at least try a sway control, so that they can see and feel the difference, is fool hardy from the get go.

Andy
As mentioned in my earlier post, all travel trailers that are delivered to dealers are towed with out sway control.
Transport companies rack up millions of miles every year and accidental are rare.
When I started as a transporter I was shocked that no sway control was used. Let me emphasis however that Load equalizing hitches are used.
After several years of this I took off to Alaska, with a friction sway control on the 22ft Safari I had at the time and ended up removing it after a few hundred miles because things didn't feel right to me.

At what point does one become a professional tower/ driver? Admittedly we drive a lot more miles than the average week end camper and maybe we do develop a little better feel for what is happening, but after a few month off it still feels funny the first few miles.

I don't discourage anyone from using these devices, I have them on some of my trailers but I think in some cases they are very oversold. Like a Hensley on a 21 footer
Common sense driving is the most important safety factor, reasonable speeds, minimum lane changes and lots of open space in front.

We have all seen improperly loaded utility trailers swaying all over the road but I can't say I have ever delivered a travel trailer that was a "swayer" regardless of brand
I tow with a typical 3/4 ton truck
On the other hand there might not be enough safety devices for the guy with the 34 footer and the Ford windstar van. But he does seem to get to Florida every year.

Andy, I do agree that one should be open minded and maybe give it a try.
I even brought an Airstream to you 5 or 6 years ago (without sway control).
I appreciate the time you took to show me your shop. Very impressive
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Old 01-14-2010, 12:59 PM   #41
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...We have all seen improperly loaded utility trailers swaying all over the road but I can't say I have ever delivered a travel trailer that was a "swayer" regardless of brand...
every year there is at least ONE 'stream crashed on the way 2 the international rally.

every year.

some years several streams are crashed related to the big rally.

debating IF these are sway related or not is pointless, UNending and those debates have already been WRITTEN HERE....

in dozens of really LONG threads, over and over...

with claims, counter claims, yes buts, "i've never seen, blah, blah...".."musta been set up WRONG".."it won't happen to me..."

and so on.

there are even LONG debates about what IS or ISn't sway, i won't go there the debate is bOOOOrish.

so it happens, it has ALWAYS happened and will CONTINUE to happen, regardless of any one person's experience or knowledge or gear ...

back to the O.P.

YES he needs sway control.

what FORM that takes is up to the individual and the CONTROL can come from many rig adjustments, devices and driver techniques...

the makers of the hitches that ELIMINATE sway (not the same as control)...

claim there has NEVER been a sway reported accident using their products...

so there....

what THIS thread needs is MORE HORROR stories, big juicy ones with broken glass, bent silver and so on...

cheers
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:30 PM   #42
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I have been driving vehicles for over 50 years and riding in them longer. I have never been in an accident. So why do I wear a seat belt? I wear a seat belt, because I think, up to this point, I have been extremely lucky. Before seat belts were mandatory in cars, I installed them and used them anyway. Would I recommend someone else not wear a seat belt or state that they didn't need one, because I have never had a need for one? I absolutely would not.
I feel the same way about this subject. It is good and probably attests to good driving skills and practices, that one can tow many times and never have or feel a need for sway control. However, it is my opinion that to extrapolate that to the point of advising another that he doesn't need sway control, because one has not themselves had a problem without it is not a very good idea. There are too many variables involved, including good fortune.
I would certainly feel very bad if I swayed (not a pun) someone away from using one of the available safety tools and later found out they had a problem because of it.

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