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Old 02-11-2007, 02:16 PM   #21
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I have been thinking about this also. If the hitch ball fails and the trailer is only connected by chains or cables, why would you not want the brakes to fully engage? At the point of seperation the trailer will most likely find a direction of it's own based upon the level of the road and other factors. With the brakes controlled by the brake controller (if the umbillical does not detatch) they should not lock and the trailer would then pull the rear of the TV in whatever direction it was heading or push the TV foward with the propane bottles. If the umbillical detaches, you would surely want the brake switch to activate. I would like to hear what others think before I change my setup....
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Old 02-11-2007, 02:26 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by davidz71
Sorta like the GM tailgate cables, right John?
Craig! Thanks for reminding me. I broke both my tailgate cables a couple weeks ago, and forgot all about it! I need to go to Dodge and pick up two.

I think that I don't know enough.

I believe that the ratings on the chains is conservative (hence less likely to fail), and I suspect that the rating on the cable is right there. I know that a sudden jerk can exert more than several times the actual weight pulled, so I would think that failure can be caused by momentum working against you, even when the ratings are observed.

So what works in my driveway at 5 mph might be totally inadequate at speed. I wonder why there are no systems to help avoid that jerk (or help absorb/soften/spread it) when a trailer disconnects from a TV. Even train couplers have springs.

This seems like kind of a static rating applied (not necessarily appropriately mind you) to a dynamic situation, however I would guess that some variables could be estimated well enough to mitigate.

I suspect that most people towing have an out of sight, out of mind attitude and never consider anything different than whatever is there. Well, I have chains now, crossed under the coupler and they only drag on driveway aprons. I am sure that if it was good enough for the PO, then it's good enough for me. Well, maybe I should reconsider the condition of the old rusty chains and added links. Maybe everyone should focus on it at least once on every trip.
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Old 02-11-2007, 03:06 PM   #23
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Question

I think I am a little aprehensive about the trailer going into panic stop mode while still attached to the TV uncommanded by the driver. Once it breaks totally free, then the locked brakes could impede its progress. The only time the chains or breakaway will likely come into play is if the TV is pulling when the disconnect occurs. So if I were traveling at say 50mph on the flat and the hitch breaks, the trailer (all 4 tons) is possibly hanging on the chains, but still under control of the brake controller-perhaps I could initiate a controlled stop. If the breakaway were to activate, I would lock-up all four trailer wheels stat (disc brakes) and possibly pull the hitch off or break the chains. It's an interesting question
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Old 02-11-2007, 04:35 PM   #24
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Please keep in mind that I'm advocating these cables. I'm only following the advice received here earlier to replace my current wimpy chains. Heck the Coleman I sold when we bought the A/S had 10,000 lb. total chains on it and it weighed 3,400 fully loaded.

No matter what we do it will be better than the small chains on the A/S now (as long as we get the connection to the trailer right). Of course we could also install this puppy and never have to worry about the trailer accidentally bouncing off the ball. The only concerns then would be the ball snapping or the coupler weld failing.
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Old 02-11-2007, 04:39 PM   #25
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Interesting issue, on boats the anchors if not rope, are for the most part chain.

Boat supplies sell two kinds of chain, imported poor welds on each link anf lower quaility steel, and they sell hi grade made in the USA it costs more.

Also you can buy Stainless steel chain the best.

I would never use an S hook or any other type, they just aren't reliable.

the quick links are the IMO only way to go.

THe cable idea first of all 36" is way to long the TT will hit the ground and maybe start fish tailing with all that slack.

Next cable doesn't absorb shock anywhere near as much as chain.

My vote is chain.
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Old 02-11-2007, 05:18 PM   #26
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I would never use an S hook or any other type, they just aren't reliable.

the quick links are the IMO only way to go.

THe cable idea first of all 36" is way to long the TT will hit the ground and maybe start fish tailing with all that slack.

Next cable doesn't absorb shock anywhere near as much as chain.
Agree on the S hook issue which is why we liked the hooks shown in the photo above of the cables.

I wanted to use the quick links also - very easy to install and fully closed. Only problem is I can't find anything strong enough. Reese makes the best I can find so far and they are rated 2,500 lbs. max. strength per link - with a note not to exceed the 'working strength' of 1,760 lbs. per link. Anyone know of a source for something beefier?

Thought about the length also. The shortest set of Reese chains I can find are 36"....? 36" is also whats on the A/S now as original equipment. The thought process was - if the chain is mounted back on the frame 24" (linear) - and the towing height is 19 1/2" - the trailer could drop the other 12", once your at a dead stop, and that would still keep it 7 1/2" off the ground. Also thinking that if it breaks lose while towing it - it's not going to drop the full length due to the trailer pulling back on the chains - creating a sling effect. That is until you come to a nice slow stop or make the mistake of jamming on the brakes.
Where's the smiley face for "boy I hope that calculations right".

Really don't know about the shock absorbency thing - suspect that's correct - but I'm thinking the additional 4,000 lb. rating will even that out with 10,000 lb. chains. Will keep looking for that info.
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Old 02-11-2007, 05:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
I believe that the ratings on the chains is conservative (hence less likely to fail), and I suspect that the rating on the cable is right there. I know that a sudden jerk can exert more than several times the actual weight pulled, so I would think that failure can be caused by momentum working against you, even when the ratings are observed
exactly,

that is why chain is load rated with a safety factor of 5 and wire rope is load rated with a saftey factor of 3.

as i stated before, connect a 3/8 chain to a 1/2 improved plow steel wire rope and give it a yank.

even though the wire rope is rated higher it will break first every time.

how do you guys think we get those line trucks out of the ditch?

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Old 02-11-2007, 05:30 PM   #28
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Rob Baker has had the trailer come off the ball while towing. His chains held.
I had one seperate when I rolled the truck. Mine chains broke. I still have one of the broken links as a reminder.
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Old 02-11-2007, 05:43 PM   #29
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Ok you want to go heavy duty, Here you go, 7,000 lbs times two is 14,000 lbs load.

Chain



I think you can use 4,000lbs rated chain.




That is a major boat supplier they have anything you need cheap.
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Old 02-11-2007, 05:59 PM   #30
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Check out the double lock snap hooks on page 1374 in the catalogue at

www.mcmastercarr.com

I've been using these on the Excella
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Old 02-11-2007, 06:17 PM   #31
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I just don't think if we're talking the best those will do???

Page 1366 is better IMO.
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Old 02-11-2007, 06:40 PM   #32
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Thanks - something there could surely work. Appreciate the info..
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Old 02-12-2007, 12:57 PM   #33
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WD add anything to the equation?

Michelle -

Question for you, since you had the mis-foturne of the most recent experience with trailer seperation.

Did the WD change anything on your 'experience'? I ask, since the discussion seems centered around the tongue coming off the ball, no mention of all the forces applied with proper WD. I recall a thread where it was 'shown' that the WD prevents the tongue from lifting - but that doesn't do anything for hitch failure... Heck, even with a ball failure, the WD ought to add some stability as the failure manifests, keeping the tongue from digging in and such.

I guess if things go that badly wrong, that seperation/ rollover is possible, then I want to be a far from the trailer as I can be in as fast a time as possible. I'll pick up the clothes, pieces and etc... later.

Come to think of it, I have seen SOB's come apart (it looked like wood, fiberglass & clothes confetti ALL OVER the road!) but never seen the aftermath of an AS (other than the Colows photos) and your's, Michelle. But yours didn't roll, right?

Anyway, would be interested on the thoughts, forces, changes that WD might inject into the discussion & debate.

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Old 02-12-2007, 01:07 PM   #34
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Chains only! Everyone above me who supports the use of chains has made mention of some very usefull information. Having seen a horse trailer breakaway off a hitch with two horses on board has convinced me that chains are they way. Chains have been in use for longer than most of us have been towing and there is a very good reason for it; they work. As driving down the highway at a reasonable speed, came upon a contruction area and hit a pothole, trailer tongue wheel hit the road hard, sheared the safety pin and threw the hitch right off the ball. The chains caught the tongue and were abel to coast off the highway without damage to us or others or the horses and rig, other than a good dent in the bumper. Extremely minor considering the event that just took place. So yes, the chains are meant to catch the tongue and keep the trailer in tow. The emergency break should only trigger if your chains fail!
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Old 02-12-2007, 01:27 PM   #35
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From horse trailer land...

okay... with the proviso that this is based upon experience with horse trailers and cowboys have their own way of thinking about such things...

when the trailer detaches, the trailer tongue part swings down under the reciever and if the chains are of equal length - kind of swings back and forth due to the effect of gravity. If the brakes don't activate a calm and moderated application of the brakes can bring things to a stop without much damage.

we would set things up so that the trailer tongue would barely touch the ground when the chains are connected and off hitch. This required some fiddling around with the location of the chains on the trailer and height/length of the chain connections on the TV.

my understanding of the brake activator on the trailer is that it should come on when the trailer is completly disconnected from the TV - last resort mechanism.

the truth be told... I haven't even looked at the Argosy to see how well or poorly it is set up to deal with a hitch dislocation.

rest assured, one de-hitch event causes you to become over cautious for the rest of your life

one man's understanding and experience...

thanks

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Old 02-12-2007, 06:10 PM   #36
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WD and accidents

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverToy
Michelle -

Question for you, since you had the mis-foturne of the most recent experience with trailer seperation.

Did the WD change anything on your 'experience'? I ask, since the discussion seems centered around the tongue coming off the ball, no mention of all the forces applied with proper WD. I recall a thread where it was 'shown' that the WD prevents the tongue from lifting - but that doesn't do anything for hitch failure... Heck, even with a ball failure, the WD ought to add some stability as the failure manifests, keeping the tongue from digging in and such.

I guess if things go that badly wrong, that seperation/ rollover is possible, then I want to be a far from the trailer as I can be in as fast a time as possible. I'll pick up the clothes, pieces and etc... later.

Come to think of it, I have seen SOB's come apart (it looked like wood, fiberglass & clothes confetti ALL OVER the road!) but never seen the aftermath of an AS (other than the Colows photos) and your's, Michelle. But yours didn't roll, right?

Anyway, would be interested on the thoughts, forces, changes that WD might inject into the discussion & debate.

Axel
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I do not think the WD had any affect on the accident. I never heard the trailer break free. The latch was destroyed. the WD bars came off and landed on the ground. the chains broke shortly there after. The Break away activated. The kept the trailer from rolling.

The ball was bent. The head looked treaked as well. They were replaced. The bars were fine.

Did that answer your question?
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Old 02-12-2007, 07:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by SilverToy
Come to think of it, I have seen SOB's come apart (it looked like wood, fiberglass & clothes confetti ALL OVER the road!) but never seen the aftermath of an AS (other than the Colows photos) and your's, Michelle. But yours didn't roll, right?
I've seen pictures of a rolled Airstream - it stayed basically intact, on the outside. The cabinets and such on the inside were quite another story...
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Old 02-12-2007, 07:56 PM   #38
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As I understand it, one of the purposes of the safety chains is to support the tonque if the hitch fails (that's why you cross them), not merely to keep the trailer attached. It seems to me that the cables should be the same length? Be interested in how you end up terminating the cables.
Here is the way I understand the order of events;

• Chains, crossed to form a “basket” should the ball come un-hitched.
• Pig-tail. You want to be able to control the braking of you trailer as long as possible. Locking up the brakes is not a good thing.
• Break-away switch. If all the above systems fail, then you would want the pin to pull and the trailer to brake on its own.

One other comment; Fortunately I have never had any serious mishaps while towing. I do have a friend however, who tows a PUP, he camps a LOT and tows long distances, is a commercial fisherman and has towed a boat EVERY Day for a good 25 years. He is one of the most experienced towers I know. He did have his PUP come off the ball, the chains cradled it as designed, and he was able to stop with no damage. I was always skeptical about the safety chains actually working like this, after his experience it made me feel a little safer.

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Old 11-09-2007, 07:26 PM   #39
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Was reading this thread tonight looking for an pics of welded attachments at the trailer A-frame.

As a former OTR flatbed driver we were equipped with Grade 70 Transport Chain to tie down a variety of loads of steel. I have purchased much of my own and learned that it is best to go to an industrial supplier who can make up the proper links, hooks, etc for ones' use. Not cheap in my case (a couple of lengths, one of them an unusual configuration), but I knew EXACTLY what it could do. And I used that same tech/shop to inspect them several years later.

Example: my chains are rated to over 6,000-lb WORKING LOAD. The hooks I use are rated to 4,000-lbs. I had to know a good number of details to get the best out of them and going to a pro was the only way. I had to trust that the hooks would fail BEFORE the chain stretched and broke.

I'll keep searching, here and elsewhere, but if anyone knows a good thread on this subject I'd be most appreciative.

Here's a link on chain. I believe Grade 80 would be overkill, and G-70 already has a nice dull gold chromate finish to prevent rusting (it will, but just oil it occasionally); G-80 does not. But, then, nothing like overkill, eh?

Chain Grading



Here's an excellent quote from 87MH on chains:

Safety chain hookup requires more thought than “I don’t think that will drag on the road”.

There are two schools of thought on Safety Chains:

Stop the trailer if the hitch system fails, or,
Simply be installed to be in compliance with various laws but with a weak link to get rid of the trailer in a catastrophic situation.

To be sure, there have been situations where a good set of safety chains, properly sized and rigged, have brought an errant trailer to a safe stop.

On the other hand, a fully loaded 34 footer, if it should suddenly decide to gee to the curbside (especially if improperly rigged), will most assuredly take the rear end of most any tow vehicle (including one ton pickups) along with it to an early demise.
Proper rigging dictates that, upon separation from the tow vehicle, no part of the trailer is allowed to dig into the asphalt or concrete of the roadway. With the longer specialty hitches it is very difficult to properly rig and adjust adequately sized safety chains to prevent front end plowing.

When selecting chain and connection links, unfortunately, size does not always indicate ultimate breaking strength. This is especially true when analyzing impact loads (the first big jerk right before you mutter Oh S**t!). When purchasing a hitch system, always insist on paperwork (preferably with stamps and tags) on each individual piece of the system.

I have walked through campgrounds shaking my head in utter amazement at 5 to 10 thousand pound trailers with safety chains or connectors I know could not have been rated at more than 500 pounds.

In a former life I did a lot of rigging and design on offshore platforms, if a piece of rigging did not have proper paperwork, we would not use it. Dynamic loads ratings (which a trailer and tow vehicle, by definition of use, should use) were assumed to be 50% of static load rating, i.e. a safety factor of two. Impact loads (certainly probable in a breakaway situation) require a much greater safety factor, and each individual hookup should be analyzed for proper risk assessment.

It is up to each individual driver to assess the degree of safety (and ultimate liability) of each individual hookup.

Since this is one of my favorite soapbox diatribes, I will volunteer to be a “librarian” of safety hookup documents, videos, and cd’s. If anyone knows of a good video, let me know, and I will purchase it and send it to forum members as they request.

Give constructive criticism where it will help, offer opinions where they may be welcome, don’t associate with malevolent and malicious people.
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And this thread:


http://www.airforums.com/forums/f439...html#post57362
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:14 PM   #40
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Forgot to add that, to secure a 10,000-lb load against movement, [2 ea] G-70 chains are needed. Is this the same as "dymanic" as Dennis makes above, or is it static (by DOT definition)a? Well, I'm still reading . . .

The weak points still seem to be the attachment points.

And I also forgot the original reason I revived this old thread: I can't imagine using cables as a substitute for chains. They may be appropriate elsewhere (maybe a 56,000-lb moho pulling a 3,600-lb jeepney), but not, I think, here.
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