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Old 10-19-2008, 07:41 PM   #99
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Jim,

The height of the ball has very little to do with it.

You change the bend in the bars by tilting the ball

Tilt it aft and you increase the load.

Tilt it more upright decrese the load.

When you do this you can feel the difference when you lever up the chain to the magic 5 link length.

In post 3 I see the ball is tilted more than I like to see, also you have 6 links.

Can you crank it up to 5 links, that will put more weight on the front axle
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:53 AM   #100
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Howie, not sure in the pic, but is the chain point to point verticle?
Also a while back I had Resse tech support on the phone and this guy who sounded very knowledgeable said you should always strive for 5 links no more no less.
Hi Bob

Yes the chains rest in a vertical position. However I do not think that is a consideration because there while the force from the bars is a 100% downward force any angle displacement would have a minimal effect on the hanger. A vector analysis using Maxwell's diagram would define the effect.

Looks like we will all be at Top Sail this year. I will be there Thursday and if things are not resolved by then maybe we can work it out then.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:07 AM   #101
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How about a Friday morning tech session on resse setups.

I helped a few people setup their rigs based on detailed Resse specs.

Another thing we can talk about is the effect of shortening the length of the receiver and the reduction in sway from that alone.

In this pic Jims bar can be cut about 5 inches as I did, made a difference.

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Old 10-20-2008, 01:15 PM   #102
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Andy, the bars are the dual cam bars. The heads have cast into them, Reese RL109.
They are 1 1/4" square where they enter the head and are 25" long from the head to the end.
There is the remains of a tag on the bars but unreadable.

Another set I have says "Quality s" cast into the head, same measurment.
Reese square torsion bar ratings are as follows.

The dimension is at the top of the bar, as it enters the torsin arm.

1 inch = 550 pounds.

1 1/8 inch = 750 pounds.

1 1/4 inch = 1000 pounds.

Those are the ratings when used with the Reese dual cam sway control.

Andy
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:00 PM   #103
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Reese setups

The purpose of adjusting the ball mount angle, is simply to increase or decrease the number of chain links that will be used under stress.

Increasing the angle will add more links, and decreasing the angle will reduce the number of links, under stress.

The magic number of links under stress should be 5 (five).

Weight is moved by the bend or torsion on the bars, not by the position or angle of the ball mount.

The trailer should be level, with respect to itself, so that the proper trailer axle loading will occur.

A tongue higher than should be, will place excessive weight on the rear axle, and likewise, a lower than level would will place excessive weight on the front axle. In either case, they represent improper rigging.

The above is true, regardless of the axle condition. Of course, in the case of a single axle trailer, the tongue height doesn't matter.

In the case of a tri-axle trailer, the trailer must be level, with respect to itself, as wih the tandem axle.

Excessive rated bars, will transfer tongue weight, but they will also cause a rough ride for the tow vehicle as well as the trailer.

The rough ride for the trailer, will also result in various damages to the trailer.

The trailer rough ride is caused by excessive rated tow vehicles, excessive rated torsion bars, bad axles, as well as improper running gear balance, which also causes excessive vibration, to the chassis, shell and all of the trailer contents to the degree of knocking things on the floor, punching the galley divider into the ceiling, pulling furniture away from the walls, fatigue cracks in the frame,and shell, shearing of rivets and causing all sorts of water leaks.

Andy
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:53 PM   #104
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My magic was elsewhere

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Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
The purpose of adjusting the ball mount angle, is simply to increase or decrease the number of chain links that will be used under stress.

Increasing the angle will add more links, and decreasing the angle will reduce the number of links, under stress.

The magic number of links under stress should be 5 (five)...
I have the old style Reese hitch, and my goal with it's seven-link-total chain, was to set up for the spring bars to be roughly parallel to the A-Arm while deflecting a healthy amount. I have three (3) links under stress.

There is an Airstream Article, central to what I thought my goal was at my website (link in signature). I wrote the article because no one in the business had one for me to read.

It would be great to read an article, in print, from someone with say, 40 years in the bidness on the subject.

Tom
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:26 PM   #105
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I have the old style Reese hitch, and my goal with it's seven-link-total chain, was to set up for the spring bars to be roughly parallel to the A-Arm while deflecting a healthy amount. I have three (3) links under stress.
Tom
Tom

While there are parallels in the desired function of the old dual cam and the newer type you can not apply some of the instructions from the old in setting up the newer type.

While there is no reason for the bars to be parallel to the A frame with the older type you definitely can not do that with the newer type. The casting on the trailing arm would jam on the bars before you accomplished a parallel setting and clearly brake the threaded piece coming from the casting to the cam. Take a look at the pictures in post #96 of this thread.

The problem originally posted in this thread has to do with the newer type WD hitch and we should not confuse the two types.
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:51 PM   #106
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Check's in the mail

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Originally Posted by HowieE View Post
... we should not confuse the two types.
Howie,

Thanks for making my point.

A good article on Reese hitches that encompasses both the old & new designs would be a tremendous benefit to owners of both old and new Airstreams.

Tom
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Old 10-20-2008, 06:41 PM   #107
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NORSEA
I looked at the closeups of your setup with the new Reese Dual Cam. I see 9 links total and 6 under load, which is exactly how many(6) links are in my old style dual cam. I have the 1"bars which I see Andy indicates are 550 lbs bars. I run all 6 links under load. We get an excellent very soft ride even for a 1 ton. My numbers are the same as yours on each axles. If that trailer is level as it appears to be I would not change anything. U did do your homework when it comes to the scales. If the trailer tire temps are about equal, indicating equal loading on both axles. I think U are there.
Hope to camp somewhere With ya next yr.
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Old 10-20-2008, 06:46 PM   #108
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Don't forget part II

Roger & MaryLou,

You did not mention how much spring bar deflection you have. If there is not enough, the anti-sway properties of your hitch will be ineffective.

Tom
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:00 PM   #109
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Wrong picture shown in post #101...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikethefixit View Post
NORSEA
I looked at the closeups of your setup with the new Reese Dual Cam. I see 9 links total and 6 under load, which is exactly how many(6) links are in my old style dual cam. I have the 1"bars which I see Andy indicates are 550 lbs bars. I run all 6 links under load. We get an excellent very soft ride even for a 1 ton. My numbers are the same as yours on each axles. If that trailer is level as it appears to be I would not change anything. U did do your homework when it comes to the scales. If the trailer tire temps are about equal, indicating equal loading on both axles. I think U are there.
Hope to camp somewhere With ya next yr.
The picture that I believe you are referring to is in post #101 which is the same picture in the original post in this thread. This picture has the very heavy 1200 pound bars; the very thing that was contributing to my problems, based on my experience.

See post #80 for the picture of my current set up. Note that only 5 links are under tension and that the spring bars have significant bend.

The setup pictured in post #80 gave me exactly what I wanted. But I was very concerned about the amount of bend in the bars.

So, I adjusted the position of the hitch ball by moving it forward one notch on the hitch. This moved 200 pounds back onto my rear axle and dropped the height of my hitch 3/4"

This is what led to my question about the 700 pound bars and wondering if they would be better for my application. I may get brave and tilt the ball back to the position shown in post #80 and try that for a while to see how it goes. I am very concerned about over stressing the bars, as I have stated in my most recent posts to this thread which has generated a flurry of responses. Unfortunately for me, none of the responses have answered my question about the impacts of trying the 700 pound bars.

On another subject, both sets of my bars have the weight rating stamped into them, as well as a sticker with the same information.

On yet another subject, I was told that Reese has 700, 800, 1000 and 1200 pound trunnion bars when doing my research for the 600 pound bar purchase. It could be that this is what the vendors had in stock at the time. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth or start a he said, she said war on this subject and will leave it to others to provide additional information on this particular subject. Goodness knows that I sure do not know all that much about Reese products and what the current offerings are.

Jim, who is still undecided about readjusting his hitch ball so the trunnion bars will be as they are shown in post #80.
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:27 AM   #110
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Everyone, thanks for all of the information in this thread. I have the Reese Dual Cam left from the old owner. I removed it to POR-15 and paint the tongue, and I've been involved in looking for the square u-bolts that were removed (forcibly). I'm not sure what size bars I have but I plan to measure them today. I suspect they are 1000 pound bars. We're getting ready to tow the empty Overlander south. Having removed the interior, I have to wonder if some of the damage (like the "punched" ceiling) is due to overhitching. We're going to pull the empty trailer with the Titan, so reading Andy's notes, we should be using about 750 pound bars. Between the hassle of getting the bolts and the potential issue of buying new bars, I'm wondering if I shouldn't just "punt" and pick up a new WD hitch system. Any thoughts, O wizards of Reese knowledge?
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:13 AM   #111
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Those square hanger bolts are most likely hardened steel so don't just make them out of soft stock. They are torqued to 75 lbs and require a LONG NUT.

A good source is E Trailer in Mo.

As for towing south. How much weight did you remove from the trailer? I would use what you have. Before hooking up to tow south. Tow the trailer without the bars to a straight and level spot. Remove the trailer from the ball. Place some masking tape on one side of the truck on the fenders just above the center of the wheel. Measure the height of the front and rear fender of the truck on a line down through he center of the wheel. Now hitch up and apply the bars. Remeasure the fender heights. While you will not see a big drop, because the trailer in empty, you want to see the front fender drop in a 40 60 ratio to the rear fender. As long as you have some weight on the front wheels of the truck the WD hitch will do it's job.

As far as the rating of the bars you can accomplish the same results with heavy or light bars. The bars are meant to reduce sway by friction applied to the cams by the bars. The difference between heavy and light bars to produce the desired effect is the deflection in the bars.
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:38 AM   #112
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Having removed the interior, I have to wonder if some of the damage (like the "punched" ceiling) is due to overhitching. We're going to pull the empty trailer with the Titan, so reading Andy's notes, we should be using about 750 pound bars. Between the hassle of getting the bolts and the potential issue of buying new bars, I'm wondering if I shouldn't just "punt" and pick up a new WD hitch system. Any thoughts, O wizards of Reese knowledge?
When the bulk heads punch into the ceiling, it is not caused by over hitching. IT IS, caused by lack of proper running gear balance, AND/OR bad axles.

The Airstream shell is flexible. With the old style 2 piece hub and drum assemblys, that can be as much as 3 "POUNDS" out of balance, are bouncing on the road, that energy goes directly to the shell, up to and including permanently altering the shape of the shell.

Note that the punching of the ceiling is only at the axle area.

There is an easy fix for the ceiling damage. Call me after your trip, and I will tell you how. Then you can report back to the other Forum members, the procedure, and the end results.

You should be using Reese 750 pound bars. Measure the top of the bar as it enters the trunnion. A 750 bar will measure 1 1/8 inches. If you have the 1000 pound bars, they will measure 1 1/4 inch, don't use them.

Andy

Have a safe trip. Y
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