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Old 07-29-2008, 06:44 PM   #57
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And The Twelve Questions begins with . . . .
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1990 35' Silver Streak Sterling; 9k GVWR.
2004 DODGE Cummins 305/555; 6-manual; 9k GVWR.
Hensley Arrow. 9-cpm solo, 15-cpm towing
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:59 PM   #58
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And The Twelve Questions begins with . . . .
That's easy.

Your name.

Andy
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Old 07-29-2008, 09:43 PM   #59
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Trunion (Spring) Bars...

I received an email stating that my new spring bars will be here next Monday. I am very disappointed in the service by e-trailer. These were ordered some time ago and they did not ship until yesterday.

So, I will not be able to evaluate them until sometime next week. This is very disappointing because I have to hook up the trailer on Saturday and move it so we can get a motor home out of the barn.

I will report back when I have something worth posting.

On another subject, I am happy that Pat posted the page that Reese puts out. The information on this page is what I used when I ordered my hitch.

I am overjoyed that we have Andy as an authoritative source about hitches, in general, and Reese in particular.

Jim
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:16 AM   #60
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What I wonder is, does Airstream need a separate set of instructions from the hitch manufacturers? If so, why doesn't Airstream and/or the manufacturers recognize that?

And if there is an accident that is claimed to be hitch-related, whose instructions would prevail in the eyes of the jury, the manufacturers' or someone else who has professional experience in the matter? Who offers the most authoritative source to protect the RVer? And who would the sharks, err, attorneys come after...usually everyone in sight when there's blood in the water.

These questions remind me of what CanAm does compared with manufacturers' towing specifications.

I hope we never have to find out.

As with everything, you pays your money and makes your choices and takes your chances.
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:26 AM   #61
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And if there is an accident that is claimed to be hitch-related, whose instructions would prevail in the eyes of the jury, the manufacturers' or someone else who has professional experience in the matter? .
Simple answer.

The "laws of Physics" would prevail.

Even good attorneys can't change that.

However, there are thousands of travel trailer owners, who don't believe in Physics, obviously. Additionally, very very few sales people and dealership owners, believe in profit far more than the laws of Physics.

Who suffers?

The RV owner, and in this case, the Airstream trailers, "BIG TIME."

Also makes for a great "bargain sale" on e-bay, along with most of the other fraud that takes place, regarding Airstreams.

Repair shops "love it" when a beat up Airstream shows up for repairs, that was absolutely cause by "over hitching."

Insurance companies, do not cover long term damage, but they do cover, sudden, accidental and direct damages.

Andy
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Old 07-30-2008, 12:59 PM   #62
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I'm inclined to go with your view on this, but unfortunately, Andy, when you say "Simple answer. The "laws of Physics" would prevail. Even good attorneys can't change that.", most jurors couldn't understand an explanation of the relevant laws of physics and how they apply. Those jurors would tend to go with the manufacturer's recommendation and consider anything else as negligent.

I'm watching this thread and hoping someone will give me an idea of where to get the lighter bars (With the older non-integrated cams) that I mentioned in an earlier post.

Walt
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Old 07-30-2008, 02:08 PM   #63
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I'm inclined to go with your view on this, but unfortunately, Andy, when you say "Simple answer. The "laws of Physics" would prevail. Even good attorneys can't change that.", most jurors couldn't understand an explanation of the relevant laws of physics and how they apply. Those jurors would tend to go with the manufacturer's recommendation and consider anything else as negligent.

I'm watching this thread and hoping someone will give me an idea of where to get the lighter bars (With the older non-integrated cams) that I mentioned in an earlier post.

Walt

No jury is expected to know the laws. They are taught what they need to know, at the time of the trial.

Many, many corporations are sucessfully sued everyday, for wrong things, up to including wrong instructions, especially if you live in California.

There are three primary sources of income in California. Work for a living, or sue someone, or be a thief.

The latter two are prefered, since they are not taxable.

Andy
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:36 PM   #64
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Sorry to interrupt but in post 47 I was asking if I had my information right. I have been wrestling with this a long time. Anyone want to go out a limb and tell me specifically what they think about our hitching up...good...adequate...poor and should change it asap? I do appreciate the tips on sources. Thanks.
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:47 PM   #65
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I think my bars may need to be changed. I have the 800# bars that I used on the 1/2 ton Expy for the 25' Classic but now we have a 3/4 ton Suburban. To pull the 27' Classic FB now from this infomation I am thinking I am supposed to be using the 600# bars, is that correct?

What supplier are you ordering from? Are these hard to find?

The dealer sent us out with 1200# on the Expy with a 23' Signature International and we downsized those to 800# Is that proper now?

Didn't see your post since I was out of the country.

Because your Suburban is 3/4 ton, you should drop to the 550-600 pound bars.

You should also take the overload leaf spring off.

Andy
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:26 PM   #66
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Accident with an under-hitched trailer?

Another thing to think about is if there was an accident and the dealer installed a 600# hitch on a combination where the manuafacturer (Reese)required a 1000# hitch then the dealer would have to prove he was in the right installing a undersized hitch and Reese with their stated 50+ years experience in the hitch business were wrong. I wouldn't want to be in that fight.... To be safe I would think dealers would just go by the recommended chart. What the individual customer does on their own is their risk.
I'm not saying you are in any way wrong, your theory makes plenty sense but I would like to hear why Reese engineers designed it the way they did.

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Simple answer.

The "laws of Physics" would prevail.

Even good attorneys can't change that.

However, there are thousands of travel trailer owners, who don't believe in Physics, obviously. Additionally, very very few sales people and dealership owners, believe in profit far more than the laws of Physics.

Who suffers?

The RV owner, and in this case, the Airstream trailers, "BIG TIME."

Also makes for a great "bargain sale" on e-bay, along with most of the other fraud that takes place, regarding Airstreams.

Repair shops "love it" when a beat up Airstream shows up for repairs, that was absolutely cause by "over hitching."

Insurance companies, do not cover long term damage, but they do cover, sudden, accidental and direct damages.

Andy
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:32 PM   #67
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Thank you Andy and welcome back home. I appreciate your input. The bars are an easy change out but taking the overleaf spring off didn't go over real well with dh. Will the bars alone be substantially better rigging even if the overleaf spring remains, albeit not optimum?
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:52 PM   #68
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Thank you Andy and welcome back home. I appreciate your input. The bars are an easy change out but taking the overleaf spring off didn't go over real well with dh. Will the bars alone be substantially better rigging even if the overleaf spring remains, albeit not optimum?
The reduction in the weight rating of the bars will help. Further help would be removal of the overload leaf.

It's interesting to note that every single time, that someone has reduced the rating of their bars, they have all reported, on this Forums, that they noticed a definite improvement.

As critical as many of the members are on this Forums, I find that very very interesting. No theories, but stated facts from those that switched.

Reese engineers did not put that chart together, their sales department did it.

Tomorrow is a busy day for me, so I think I will call the head of Reese Friday, and have a discussion with him, about the stupidity of that chart and what their customer service staff is told to say.

Again, in spite of their excellence, Reese has NEVER, EVER, in their entire existence, investigated the cause of a loss of control accident while towing a travel trailer.

On the other hand, I have, over 1000 times, and came up with several reasons why that happens, in over 95 percent of the time That data was challenged several times, without anyone, EVER, being able to dispute the findings.

An over rated hitch was one of the major causes. Lack of sway controls, overload springs, improperly inflated air lifts or air bags, were all major contributors, as well as some other factors.

In some cases, two, and once in a while more, of those factors, were found in some of those losses.

Data, is data. It becomes extremely difficult, if not impossible, to dispute. Opinions don't count. Research does count.

But the hitch manufacturers, including Reese, are satisfied to keep the real information, that none of them have ever researched, away from the public.

I for one, intend to challenge the "PHONY" chart that Reese has published, and to stop the "nonsense" that Reese's customer service people hand out.

I have the data. Reese does not. No other hitch manufacturer, has that data either.

Lets see how many members of this Forums make the change and then lets see how many of them report positive or negative findings, or evaluations.

This subject was brought up again and again, over 35 years ago, with no results.

Lets now see, if the "silence" is still the golden rule.

Andy
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:46 AM   #69
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Hi Carol and all.

I found Andy to be dead on here. I know I posted this before, but when I read the Overhitched thread, I decided to put it to the test.

I had 1200lb bars, bought a set of used trunnion style 800lb bars and also 600lb bars. Each step down in bar size (mind you with a 3/4 ton Suburban--your results could vary), did show a significant improvement from the 1200lb bars, and a noticiable difference between the 800 and the 600lb bars. I stayed with the 600lb bars and have been very satisfied with the overall performance of the quality of feel of the tow rig in action.

I would strongly recommend anyone with a 3/4 ton suspension or more go to eBay, buy some inexpensive trunnion style bars (far less expensive than even on-line retail sales) from a reputable seller and do a test for yourself. My real world tests indicated that downgrading the bars and not being overhitched, using a dual cam system was exactly what the system seemed to need to make it work well.

I was asked via PM if I have to really flex the bars to get a load to the front axle, the answer is no. When I had 1200lb bars, I had to use 6 or more chain links to get the rig level and get any spring action on the 1200s at all. This was difficult, because the rig would level far easier than it was to get any flex out of the 1200s. As you know, having some bend/tension on the bars is critical for the dual cam to work properly. Using the 800lb bars, I was using I believe 5 to get a level rig and good flex, even though I had more flex than with the 1200s and better tow exp, I still applied the 600s next. Going to 600lb bars seemed a bit scary from the standpoint that I have about 800lbs of hitch weight, maybe more depending on how much junk I pack (the factory stated weight of the 25' Safari SS was 750lbs, I placed a hitch scale on and found when packed like a rat, I had around 800lbs-- that is how I came up with 800lbs of hitch weight). The issue you have to understand, as I see it, is that you are not taking the full hitch weight and transferring all of it, just some of it. Some to the front axles of the TV, and some back to the axles of the trailer, whiles some remains on the rear axle of the TV. I was nervous that the 600s would snap in half because in my mind, I had 800+lbs of hitch weight, and was only going to put 600lb bars on?! I though I was nuts, but I did it anyway and they didn't break because, I'm not putting the full 800lbs of load across the bars. Now if I had higher hitch weights, clearly, you could NOT use the 600s, but with my 25' Safari and it's hitch weight and my 3/4 ton Suburban, it worked well.

With the 600s and my setup (your results could very, so do your testing and homework to find your best setup) I get good flex, level ride, weight distributed using only 4 chain links. Wind, evasive maneuvers (with or without hard braking), general towing and blow by significantly improved.

I now have thousands of miles (maybe 10k) with the 600lb bars. I sold my 1200s on eBay and have never looked back and haven't taken out my overload spring....yet, though I can see how it could improve things a bit more, the fact is that with the 600s alone, I found it to be a night and day difference from the 1200s I was using.

I suppose a Hensley would behave even better, but I don't have, nor want to spend about $3k on a hitch and for the prices paid, the dual cam, as advertised here does a great job IMHO.
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Old 07-31-2008, 01:14 PM   #70
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My thanks again to Andy and Eric. Eric you probably were the biggest persuader for us to move to the 3/4. And you were very right about the comfortable stable driving. I am very happy with the Suburban, albeit it's SO big. That's OK our fur baby zoo has grown. You both are very good and helpful to take your time and energy to urge members to examine their systems and and share your knowlege and experience.
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